CD Article: 2009 BMW 335d

[rrocket]

^^^^Don't forget the Subaru Forester diesel.....

[Turbo Bob]

How long would it take to break even, given the $800 premium + the extra cost of fuel vs the better economy?

Last time I worked this out for a diesel car in the UK it was many years, so it wouldn't even pay for itself in the time I would have owned it.  The only time this really works IMHO is for small diesel cars, like the Peugeot 106 I had that could do 55-60mpg easily.  Therefore the extra 10p in the cost of diesel was worth it.

I crunch numbers all day and it's too late to start doing it now... Anyone want to have a go?

P.S. They still sound crap when you start them up! 

[Thinking Out Loud]

"As a premium model, the 335d will command a premium price in the 3 Series lineup: its starting MSRP of $49,700 is $800 more than a manual-equipped 335i."

I hate this new marketing of diesels.  Expensive economy...

The miracle of a free market economy....the car is priced up to pay you back AFTER you've had it X number of years.  Why would BMW take the hit up front whilest there are shareholders to impress? 

No, for the real diesel revolution to start, Honda and Toyota need to get into the game.  Followed, I hope, by Mazda, Nissan, and the Big 2. 

  +1 

Why is it the manufacturers of vehicles for the (generally) well heeled than most and are likely unconcerned about what fuel costs if they can afford to drive a $50,000+ vehicle are the only manus' interested in going to Diesel Land?  M-B?  Audi? 

Helllooooo - FORD?  Suzuki was mentioning bringing over the Suzuki SX4 as a diesel:

http://www.wheels.ca/newsFeatures/article/394990

From the article:

The model I drove costs about £12,000 in Britain – equating to about $22,600 in our currency. Its only direct competitor here would be a base model VW Jetta Wagon, which starts at $25,775 – admittedly standard with more horsepower but arguably not as potentially go-anywhere as the SX4.

THAT is a vehicle that can bring some competition for the masses.....

[vdk]

I also do think VW is the only automaker that could make diesel mainstream.. $50k diesels won't reach the general public.. $25k diesels just might..

[rrocket]

I also do think VW is the only automaker that could make diesel mainstream.. $50k diesels won't reach the general public.. $25k diesels just might..

Yup...and Ford could get a head start and really kick some ass if they brought over the Fiesta diesel.  Would be the cheapest diesel on the market.... 

[tpl]

I also do think VW is the only automaker that could make diesel mainstream.. $50k diesels won't reach the general public.. $25k diesels just might..

Yup...and Ford could get a head start and really kick some ass if they brought over the Fiesta diesel.  Would be the cheapest diesel on the market.... 

Or the Euro Focus diesel. That slightly bigger car might well sell better than the Fiesta.

[quadzilla]

I'm willing to bet if Mazda brought over their 3-diesel they would be beating away customers....same with Subaru and the Forester.

I still don't know why BMW didn't start off with either the 320 or 325 diesel in the sedan and wagon. I think a stripper 320d Touring for $40K would do very well here.

[Thinking Out Loud]

I'll just go to the US and but one for $38,000.....

BMW Canada can't be that bright after the dollar parity issue and their pricing strategies with US sale defections.

Anyone know what the US pricing would be on this?

[tortoise]

I still don't know why BMW didn't start off with either the 320 or 325 diesel in the sedan and wagon. I think a stripper 320d Touring for $40K would do very well here.

It would do well in Canada, yes.  Unfortunately I don't see it doing so well in the states who seem to love their high powered, high optioned cars.   I was in Vermont over the holidays and it's amazing how many luxury cars were rolling around.  The US market for BMW absolutely dwarks the Canadian market so we're never gonna get the low end small diesel BMWs.  Well not until gas is back up to $150 a barrel.

[toolatecrew]

And what's with BMW not putting a manual transmission in a 3-series?  "Premium" is slushbox only?  Their excuse is lame.  Sure, they may not sell many, but this car still deserves to have a true manual transmission.

The reason they give is lame but the truth of it is that it would make 0 sense to do it. Its not even that they wouldn't sell any but they would have to design build and certify an entirily NEW tranny to put a manual in a few cars. They don't have anything that will handel that torque. The cost of making a manual would be prohibitive. If they could just drop a 6 speed in fine but you'd have to be an idiot to spend a ton of money for a tranny few will buy.

Maybe they will offer a manual in a lower powered version in the future when they could use an exisiting tanny from an M series or something.

As for the once a year fluid top up for the emissions system ..well it beats buring oil in an rotary engine for a mazda right ;-)

[The Mighty Duck]

But at $50K this car won't start a revolution.  Of the passenger diesels on the market (M-B, VW Jetta, and now BMW) only one of them is in the price range of us mere mortals.  Or those of us with decent incomes but other places to put it, like kids, houses, retirement savings, etc.  And the VW has a less than stellar reliability reputation among some people.

I'm not sure I agree.  I agree that lower-priced models are necessary, but I also think the 335d is an important car in changing the perception of diesels in North America.  If buyers see a BMW with a diesel, then that might change their perception of diesels, and make them more likely to buy a lower-priced diesel car.  Obviously those cheaper models need to be available, but in terms of generating demand for diesel engines, I think a diesel "halo car" of sorts is a step in the right direction.

The reason they give is lame but the truth of it is that it would make 0 sense to do it. Its not even that they wouldn't sell any but they would have to design build and certify an entirily NEW tranny to put a manual in a few cars. They don't have anything that will handel that torque. The cost of making a manual would be prohibitive. If they could just drop a 6 speed in fine but you'd have to be an idiot to spend a ton of money for a tranny few will buy.

The M5 produces 381 ft/lbs, and is available with a six speed manual.  Now, maybe that tranny is being stretched in that application as it is, I'm not sure.  But one would imagine if they can produce a transmission that can handle 381 torques they could make it deal with 425.

Though I agree, the cost/benefit might not work, even if it's just a matter of upgrading an existing tranny.  But maybe if the diesel sells well, they'll invest in a manual transmission option in the future.  One can hope, at least.

[Honda Owner]

I was in Vermont over the holidays and it's amazing how many luxury cars were rolling around.

Bigger market, more cars period....

That said, the US market has a bigger penetration of loaded models than we do in Canada.

Where I live, BMW cars are called "Westside Chevys." They are everywhere.

[rrocket]

Where I live, BMW cars are called "Westside Chevys." They are everywhere.

When I would travel to California they were EVERYWHERE.  Entire school parking lots filled with them.  More numerous than Civics and other small cars it seemed.

[tpl]

"The M5 produces 381 ft/lbs, and is available with a six speed manual.  Now, maybe that tranny is being stretched in that application as it is, I'm not sure.  But one would imagine if they can produce a transmission that can handle 381 torques they could make it deal with 425."

But would that transmission fit a 3 series bodyshell?  Would the heavy duty clutch used by the manual M5 fit in a bell housing that fits the 335D block and so on.

And... even in 2002 when I ordered my BMW  even in in the GTA   9 of 11 330s in Ontario at the particular instant were automatics and I bet that got worse.

[rrocket]

Multiple reviews of the M3 (the top 3 Series) called the manual transmission "rubbery". 

Would you want a rubbery manual or a good auto??  Especially in the low rev diesel...which you'd be short shifting because of low RPM redline.

[tpl]

I would want a carefully programmed dual clutch transmission like the new M3. Programmed for the characteristics or the diesel that is.  Best of both worlds for an engine like that and can probably take the torque as well

[vdk]

The M5 produces 381 ft/lbs, and is available with a six speed manual.  Now, maybe that tranny is being stretched in that application as it is, I'm not sure.  But one would imagine if they can produce a transmission that can handle 381 torques they could make it deal with 425.

the only M5 without launch control and w/o the possibility to fully disengage DSC.. why? 'cause of that tranny..

[rrocket]

M5 in Europe has launch control.....(with manual) IIRC....

[vdk]

there's no stick in Euroland..

[rrocket]

Is it the M6 in Euroland that has launch control?  I remember reading a road test of either the M5 or M6 prior to the release in the US in which they said the stick has launch control yet they weren't sure if the launch control with manual would make it to the US....