Topic: Bring It On - Winter Driving Series

[Johnny]

As an Ottawa resident, I'll be reading these articles with interest. I'm hoping you will also include some FWD cars, as I've often heard that the best all-around winter vehicle is a lightweight, FWD car with 4 winter tires.

I'm especially looking forward to your findings regarding electronic stability control (ESC) systems. I've read many articles touting the merits of ESC, however it's not available on many of the Canadian versions of the cars I'm interested in (compact & sub-compact hatchbacks, manual transmission). And I'm sure some systems are better than others when it comes to winter driving.

A lot of would-be car buyers like me have never driven a vehicle with ESC. Speaking for myself, I seem to have gotten by fine without it so far. But if I can be convinced they are worthwhile, I will vote with my dollars when it comes to my next purchase. If more people do that, it may help influence car makers to make it standard equipment on more models here.

Cheers

[rrocket]

I've driven both.  While I haven't had the need for my ESC to "save my butt" ever, it is nice to know it's there.  In my GS400 in winter conditions, it was virtually impossible to spin-out the car with ESC on.  I tried doing it on purpose and could not.  So it definitely works.

My other car...my Echo has no such niceties.  But I tell you what.  With 4 winters on it, this car goes through snow like crazy!  I have driven in snow so deep you could hear (and see) the undercarriage dragging on the snow, yet the car plugged along fine.  Conditions would have to be atrocious for my little car to be stuck.....

[tpl]

Last three cars. All with  4 winter tires
Audi A4 Quattro 5mt    No esp and worked really well without it.
BMW 330xi  5mt           ESp which worked very well EXCEPT at slow ( maneuvering speeds) in deep snow. Then it had to be turned off to stop the smell of overheated brake pads
Golf GTI  DSG                  Esp works and does what it is supposed to do but at low speeds around town I think the car works better with it off. I.e with it one it doesn't behave like a classic fwd car should  imho ymmv

[initial_D]

I don't know about a FWD with a set winter tires is the best. I have 3 cars with winters on now, one of them is a FWD, traction control, no ESC. When I am in that car, I am the most careful, wouldn't do anything other than drive careful.

With the non-stop snow dump, and a couple days of sun shine, there are a few places that has loose snow on top, and slick ice stuck on the ground. The FWD can go thru it no problem, but will get stuck temporary from a stand start, have to rock back-and-forth a few times to get out. That condition would exist in some parking lots.

With AWD and winter tires, even with computer control systems (2wd-to-4wd), the car will go almost anywhere, standing starts are good most of the time. However, I tend to drive faster in a AWD vehicle for some reason. AWD is not any better when driving on very icy roads.  

[wing]

I've driven a lot of ESC equipped cars they are good.  The independant braking at each wheel makes a huge difference in the winter.  When normally you would understeer away off the road, being able to brake say the back inside wheel on a corner will put you on a straight path rather than a angle.  Works well -- and even though I can drive fairly well, there is no way I could do that since I can't control only 1 brake.

Now if only they made the systems only intervene after I drifted a little sideways for fun

[PMREdmonton]

I have AWD SUV (FWD under good conditions, not full-time AWD) with stability control and 4 winter tires and have no fears of ever getting stuck or ever losing control of the vehicle so long as I drive like it is winter.

I have a FWD car without stability control and 4 winter tires - I am confident in this car on ice and small snowfalls but would be wary about wading into deep snow.  It does well on plowed streets.  I am a little bit more careful with this car on turns because of not quite as much acceleration ability on ice and less control in turns.

I think a careful driver can be fine in most urban settings with FWD with winter tires and without stability control so long as he is cautious, but I will not buy another car without it.  If you want a small car with it - Toyota Corolla, Toyota Matrix, Subaru Impreza, Honda Civic, Pontiac Vibe, Mitsubishi Lancer, VW Jetta all have it as an option.  If you move up to mid-size 4-cylinders there are now alot of choices here too - Camry, Accord, Mazda6, Ford Fusion, Chevy Malibu, Saturn Aura, VW Passat.

[The Mighty Duck]

I've heard that ESC and other traction aides can be detrimental in snow because they make it hard to start from a stop...  *shrug*  Otherwise, I think I read earlier today that stability control could prevent something like 17% of avoidable accidents...

[99 Silver]

I absolutely swear by the effectiveness of ESC or whatever you call it.  I won't buy another car without it.

I live on a cul de sac and I can floor the throttle when going around the bubble in the snow and the car will not spin out.  The computer takes over, reduces throttle, applies individual brakes to get back on line, and then tries to apply power again and repeats the cycle.

I once entered a decreasing radius exit ramp off a freeway at too high a speed just after it starting raining and the rear end started to break loose and the ESC caught it and saved me from a spin into a barrier.

The car is an Infiniti M35 rear wheel drive.

[Squishy]

I've heard that ESC and other traction aides can be detrimental in snow because they make it hard to start from a stop...  *shrug*  Otherwise, I think I read earlier today that stability control could prevent something like 17% of avoidable accidents...

From what I understand, ESC = good for safety, bad for fun.  Traction control, on the other hand, is the one that needs to be disabled in some situations because it will not allow you to start from a stop.

[vdk]

^^^ It all depends on the system used really. Mine will allow for quite a bit of spin, and it will never stop the wheels completely if I have my foot on the throttle.

I think many manufacturers use BOSCH as their ESP provider. Or, more precisely, BOSCH supplies every stability program called 'ESP'.

Does it work? Hell yeah. And many of them are completely defeatable when you want to have some fun.

[TB]

I personally think that the stability control on the new Bmw's is one of the best.  By taking the traction control off you can drift a little and the system won't interfere until it has to, and therefore preventing you from spinning out.  It is amazing!....now if only I had more than 3 inches of ground clearance it would be unstoppable.

[Honda Owner]

We have had a record December here on what is normally the Wet Coast. Roads are impassible for most drivers. Snow removal on anything other than major routes in non-existent.

But not me. I have 4 Nokian snows on my original 14" rims and I got 165-75/R14. With the light weight, standard transmission and skinny snows, the Fit is unstoppable. But many years of driving experience up and down ski hills is also a major factor. ESC, we don't need no shinkin' ESC!

Yesterday, as an aside, I received a panic call from on of my clients. Her Porsche Cayenne Turbo S was stuck on a side street and her husband would kill her if it was dented or anything. When I got there, I found it had four bald high performance tires. Of course she didn't know anything about the locking diffs or that kind of thing. Not that it made any difference, the snow was a good two feet deep or more and the car could not get any traction. Took me two hours of digging to get it out. When I asked her, "Why the hell didn't you buy some snow tires?" she replied, "They are too expensive."

I was not impressed by the car. When I tried to lower the cabin temp, the cheap plastic lever that controls it came off in my hand. The switch gear was tremendously complicated. My Honda has a better interior. But hey, people buy these things to say one thing: "I am rich." Too bad in don't go in da snow.

[initial_D]

Snow tires for a Cayenne Turbo S would be expensive. Cheaper to a buy a winter beater.

[Honda Owner]

Cheaper to a buy a winter beater.

And let your neighbours see you driving it? What are you smoking!

These people live in a $5m house and drive a $150,000 car. Snow tires would be pocket change.

[initial_D]

I smoke the finest BC Home Grown, thank you very much.

$5M house + $150,000 mean sh!t to me. What pocket change do they have left after making the payments? REAL Rich people never mention the word expensive, not the ones I know anyway. 

[vdk]

recession recession recession.. 


With bald tires no electronics will get you out of the ditch.. but with decent tires they might help you stay out of it..

[CyberNick]

Hmmm... Tire Trends has a set of Blizzaks with wheels and taxes for $3.5K, or only 2.3% of the cost of the Cayenne Turbo, assuming it costs $150K.

For reference, my winter tires and rims set me back 3.7%. So as a percentage of the vehicle cost, winter tires on the Cayenne are considerably less expensive then most. This is why I think they should be mandatory throughout Canada.

[CyberNick]

I have some questions regarding the "Winter beaters":

• With all the modern safety equipment available on many newer cars, why would people even consider "saving" their nice new car when it fact it could be saving them?
• If a winter beater is in fact a total POS car (structural problems due to rust, bad brakes, etc...) why wouldn't the govenment just get them off the road and treat their drivers the same way as drivers acused of "racing"?
• Which is better: To be seen in a nice car stuck because of no proper tires or to be seen in a not so nice car having no sticking issues?

[Honda Owner]

What pocket change do they have left after making the payments?

These people don't make payments. They pay cash. As in brown bills. Stacks of them.

[initial_D]

Goo for them. Another classic case of more money than ... ... And perhaps even anal enuff to turn that brown stuff into diamond.