Topic: The "Big 3" Should Apologize

[Rupert]

From the point of view of supplying cars that the customers want...I wonder how that scenario works. Do the customers lead or follow. Did customers indicate that they wanted large SUVs or did the manufacturers lead them down that path. I tend to think the latter is probably more of the case. It seems to me that other things also play a big part...like ability to tow trailers and boats that large amounts of discretionary dollars, available in the recent past, made affordable. The downsizing of the 'full size car' possibly resulted in more trucks. The ability to be able to do things does not mean that they should be done. I used to go fishing with my dad wearing welly boots and walking down the river bank carrying our fishing rods and creels...a far cry from 300 hp bass boats. I am pretty sure that my times on the river bank were much more enjoyable. Appologising...I dont know...maybe a realisation that past practises are a part of 'times gone by' would be a start.

[Diesel Advocate]

GM in particular refused to take in and act on the criticism of their cars. 
 

But in Europe, GM (Vauxhall/Opel) did take in and act, just look at their current range of vehicles. Ford who have nearly won the fight of the big two in Europe but it's much harder to choose between the two. But the gap is worlds apart in North America. GM need to pretty much scrap their entire North American lineup and stop building vehicles which are at least a decade behind in terms of design and build. Ford seem to be on the right path but still need to scrap many of it;s NA product line.

[barrie1]

Its not like the BIG 3 don't already build excellent vehicles to-day as I do know they last longer then cars of other periods in our auto driving history right up to now. Everybody has a so-called bad experience in their mind regarding a certain car which sours them on the product. There is more reasons why car sales are down and quality really isen't one of them from these builders. Who in the US can even get a Bank loan for a new car to-day. The dealers can't get cash to stay open and order the stock in so why is it the Builders fault. Did the Housing crash of this year start the Ball rolling or is it the recessions main fault. I have owned and driven dozs of different makes and models starting with the late 40's cars that we worked on in the backyards of our parents homes. The 50's and 60's car which are now very collectable I had lined up at times in my Dads driveway and where I worked at different garages. You were always tinkering to keep them running sometimes everyday to just keep them running The bodys were all metal and heavy but the price of gas was very cheap by comparison to our wages even. There was 5 times as much maintenance to have done or do yourself as well and if you were lucky 100,00 thousand miles was a great milage achievement to see happen as they usually were getting tired by then. I see lots of trucks and car engines go 850,000 klms or more in to-days engine with little done to them except the routine oil changes and filters. Maybe one set of spark plugs. The bodys seem to last longer now for rust penetration with them which helps in the savings of money for replacing rusted out panels. The advancement in electronics is also a good one as these cars of to-day are much more fuel efficient as well cleaner burning also. Look at the Hp some of the 4 cylinder engines are producing as many of the early V8's did not even close to these figures as well.  I do not hardly ever see any complaints or questions on problems in the Tech sec for the Ford line of products. Their vehicles have inproved a lot in the last 10 years even the same as the other 2. I think Fords sells a very decent economy car in their lineup for the money as well.  When folks say No-body wants them is wrong as in the years of 2005 to 2007 Even Ford outsold Toyota and Honda as well as 22 Billion in research technology for Flex Fuel,Hybirds,Eco Boost systems and plug in Hybird cars, Oops Hydrogen vehicles as well. They sure seem to sell and you say no-body wants them?  GM still outsold Toyota last year in the US which still gives them the Crown for now as remember NO-body wants them you said

[ovr50]

Barrie - "GM still outsold Toyota last year in the US which still gives them the Crown for now as remember NO-body wants them you said"

Since you like to boast about how "well read" you are regarding newspapers, I wonder if you would comment on today's (Dec13) article in the Globe&Mail Business Section, page B5, regarding the US auto makers - specifically the paragraph, and I quote:

"Globally, Toyota tied GM for vehicle sales in 2007 and is set to become the world's largest manufacturer this year. If market share doesn't sound like a big deal, consider how vehicle sales translated into profits. In 2007, both Toyota and GM sold 9.37 million vehicles. However, Toyota earned $17.1 billion (US) on those sales, while GM lost $38.7 billion."

End of quote. Care to comment? Or doesn't your reading material extend beyond the CAW propagana newsletter?

GM has admitted themselves that they made many mistakes over the past decade, futher that they will be out of cash in a matter of a few months. That is a documented fact. Any comment?

[G35X]

"...Everybody blames the big 3 for focusing on SUVs and pickups, but hey, they were just making cars that people wanted to buy at that time. They just lacked the ability to see ahead and realize that that scenario wouldn't last forever and the table turned faster than they could predict..."  - Wolverine


The big 3 were so successful in their lobbying activities to keep CAFE for SUVs and pickups at 22.2mpg by shooting down proposals for higher numbers in the past that they got into the trouble to-day.  Also, they were successful in letting the government establish the prohibitively high import duty on pickups (25%).  All in all, because of these easy routes they took, SUVs and trucks were more profitable than cars (which have to meet 27.5mpg CAFE) for them and they made consumers want SUVs and pickups through pricing and advertisement.  And they gave away small car market to foreign manufacturers. When consumers woke up to find $4/gal gas and realized it was silly to drive around in F-150’s, Silverados and Expeditions in the city they stopped buying them.  Too bad!  UAW/CAW were also so successful in the past negotiations with strikes and strike threats that they priced themselves out.  Too bad!

[TopGun]

"...Everybody blames the big 3 for focusing on SUVs and pickups, but hey, they were just making cars that people wanted to buy at that time. They just lacked the ability to see ahead and realize that that scenario wouldn't last forever and the table turned faster than they could predict..."  - Wolverine


All in all, because of these easy routes they took, SUVs and trucks were more profitable than cars (which have to meet 27.5mpg CAFE) for them and they made consumers want SUVs and pickups through pricing and advertisement.  And they gave away small car market to foreign manufacturers. When consumers woke up to find $4/gal gas and realized it was silly to drive around in F-150’s, Silverados and Expeditions in the city they stopped buying them.  Too bad!

So who do you think drove those decisions to make higher profit vehicles?  Shareholders.  I might argue that GM didn't lack the ability to see ahead...they couldn't act on it due to their shareholders.

Here's a quote from Saturday's Wheels...let's see if you can complete who the company is:

"Introduced in 2004 the (model) was the company's full-size pick-up for the North American market.  A relative sales disappointment, it was criticized for not offering more body styles than an extended and crew cab and was only available with a V8 while rivals offered V6s."

[barrie1]

That certainly was not GM and why has the Toyota Motor Company and the Nissan Motor companies spent many millions in trying to get into this North American truck market. Must be profit in it which they have tried to share but have not totally captured at all. The market did not collapse from lack of vehicle quality or designs at all but by thieves in the housing and Banking industry which have been rescued by the US Gov to the tune of 700 Bullion dollars. The auto companies need only 4% of this amount as a loan and thats too much, so is supporting dishonest bankers and bookkeepers who stand behind them as well.  Ovr with your attitude towards the auto workers in this Country I just wonder who you will cheer to see go down next as I know you will. Of course you are a Banker type Bookkeeper who was part of the problem in the US while all the free help went to the imports with free land and many other gifts of cash to locate there. By the way they did not exactly tie with GM as GM actually outsold them by 3000 units that year so maybe you should also do some reading. Ford for example has been quoted as being at least equal to any Japanese vehicle either built in north America or brought in and also the same as GM a vehicle that gives better milage also then even the Civic. Maybe you should check the tech section here more often as well to see just how problems some of the Imports actually have according to their owners. Just how much do you actually hate your fellow Candians in other provinces as you appear to have absolutely No feeling at all for their troubles at all. Just yor own little world and the Imported vehicles you drive is all many of us on see actually see you care for. 

[toolatecrew]

The market did not collapse from lack of vehicle quality or designs at all but by thieves in the housing and Banking industry which have been rescued by the US Gov to the tune of 700 Bullion dollars. The auto companies need only 4% of this amount as a loan and thats too much, so is supporting dishonest bankers and bookkeepers who stand behind them as well. 

The "auto cpompanies" don't need 4% of that amount.

Chrysler and GM need 4% of that Amount. Ford said they don't need money right now.

Toyota, Honda etc etc ..NONE of them have asked for money to bail them out. They build cars in the US in Canada. They sell cars in the US in Canada. They are effected by the banking crisis in exactly the same way. They are not saying lend me Billions of dollars or I'll go bankrupt.

As far as caring about Auto Workers there are many Auto Workers who are not effected by this. Toyota just opened a new  plant employing 1200 Canadians as AUTO WORKERS. It seems to me that someone who CARES about fellow Canadians getting Autoworker jobs would care MORE about them having a job than about whether they are members of the CAW but that's just me. I want to see as many Canadians as possible employed and making a living in the Auto Industry. If Toyota or Honda want to buld other plants and employ another 1200 or 2400 or whatever people I'd much rather give them money to them than to see GM close down plants and throw more people out of work.

More jobs for ALL Canadians not just CAW members for all you patriots out there.

[ovr50]

That certainly was not GM and why has the Toyota Motor Company and the Nissan Motor companies spent many millions in trying to get into this North American truck market. Must be profit in it which they have tried to share but have not totally captured at all. The market did not collapse from lack of vehicle quality or designs at all but by thieves in the housing and Banking industry which have been rescued by the US Gov to the tune of 700 Bullion dollars. The auto companies need only 4% of this amount as a loan and thats too much, so is supporting dishonest bankers and bookkeepers who stand behind them as well.  Ovr with your attitude towards the auto workers in this Country I just wonder who you will cheer to see go down next as I know you will. Of course you are a Banker type Bookkeeper who was part of the problem in the US while all the free help went to the imports with free land and many other gifts of cash to locate there. By the way they did not exactly tie with GM as GM actually outsold them by 3000 units that year so maybe you should also do some reading. Ford for example has been quoted as being at least equal to any Japanese vehicle either built in north America or brought in and also the same as GM a vehicle that gives better milage also then even the Civic. Maybe you should check the tech section here more often as well to see just how problems some of the Imports actually have according to their owners. Just how much do you actually hate your fellow Candians in other provinces as you appear to have absolutely No feeling at all for their troubles at all. Just yor own little world and the Imported vehicles you drive is all many of us on see actually see you care for. 

  You are a joke. Now the name calling starts, I guess.  Funny, you didn't mention in your above rant, anything about the fact that Toyota made $17+billion profit on their sales in 2007, while GM sold the same amount (or even 3000 units more?) and lost $37+billion. Didn't think that was worth commenting on? Of course, when your buddies are part of the problem instead of part of the solution, it's time to start the name calling.

I've been called worse by better men than you. 

[Rupert]

I wonder how many ordinary people can go out and spend $40,000 + on an auto. If this is the price bracket that is profitable...then I suspect it is not a volume one. It would seem that most of the higher volume product is produced elsewhere now although a couple of instances seem to be bucking the trend for domestic brands. It used to be that having many dealerships around was a good feature for sales, this meaning that service was readily available wherever one went.
Culpability is immaterial at this point I think. It seems to me that taxpayer dollars will come in to play somewhere; either at the production line or the EI line and/or both. I think that the ordinary taxpaying public needs to be shown a business model that experts (if there are any) agree has a chance. The flat world has not been facilitated by the worker on the line or others not associated. The washing has been done and now the bumps are possibly being ironed smooth. We do not want to singe the material so that the garment can not be worn again.

[TopGun]

"Introduced in 2004 the (model) was the company's full-size pick-up for the North American market.  A relative sales disappointment, it was criticized for not offering more body styles than an extended and crew cab and was only available with a V8 while rivals offered V6s."

Ugh...Barrie...when someone comes to the defense of the Big3...consider leaning on the shovel instead of digging yourself deeper.

The company in the above quote is Nissan...and they built an entire plant for the Titan.  They were so convinced about the North American market and the price of fuel that they didn't even offer a V6.

So...it's not only the Big 3s crystal ball that didn't work.

Correct TLCrew...the Japanese are not asking for dollars from the US Gov't...here's some evidence from Jim Press (former Toyota) that shows the Japanese already gave dollars to their auto industry.

http://www.autospies.com/news/Jim-Press-clarifies-statement-on-Japanese-government-s-support-in-Toyota-hybrid-technologies-28326/

Jim Press didn't back down when refuted by Toyota...and we all know you don't need to give money directly...the government can support R&D or invest in technology to support an industry.

[tpl]

I don't think that your "ordinary person"   goes out and spends $40,000 on an automobile.    I think they go out and spend  $xxx a MONTH on an automobile without really caring about the capital cost.

And thats the problem.    The banks and finanac companies seem to have (temporarily) given up on a lot  of that market and a lot of "ordinary people" have also reduced their possible $xxx per month to a much lower figure of $000 per month.  As cars generally last a lot longer than  new car buyers keep them for this is, if you like, good for the environment as those buyers will probably continue with good maintenance but bad for the car companies.     Its also bad for the environment as the buyers of those one owner cars will now stay behind with their older emission state vehicles unless forced off the road by emissions tests... and what government would force the poor to walk during an economic downturn ?

[safristi]

"the poor walking"  no need to bring up the Ottawa Bus Millionaires again eh!!! Oh i just DID...MY BAD......

[G35X]

“The company in the above quote is Nissan...and they built an entire plant for the Titan.  They were so convinced about the North American market and the price of fuel that they didn't even offer a V6. So...it's not only the Big 3s crystal ball that didn't work…” – TopGun

Nissan and Toyota had no choice because of the protectionist import duty (25%).  The truck market itself was heavily promoted because trucks are more profitable for D3: no R&D expenditures for better mileage, cleaner exhaust, lower CO2 emissions, better accident avoidance system etc.  They just kept making trucks of 50-year old design.  Because of this market situation naturally Nissan, Toyota and even Honda dealers wanted trucks, and they too got burned.

Speaking of trucks I think F-150’s and Rams of North America are unique only to this market (maybe Australia, too).  They are unnecessarily big and not aerodynamic at all… big square frontal cowling, poor space utilization etc.   If you want a reliable workhorse take a look at pictures of Iraq and Afghanistan.  Nissan and Toyota trucks are all over, many of them with a machine gun mounted on the bed.  People there do not need to identify themselves with a truck they drive, you know.   

[rrocket]

That certainly was not GM and why has the Toyota Motor Company and the Nissan Motor companies spent many millions in trying to get into this North American truck market. Must be profit in it which they have tried to share but have not totally captured at all. The market did not collapse from lack of vehicle quality or designs at all but by thieves in the housing and Banking industry which have been rescued by the US Gov to the tune of 700 Bullion dollars. The auto companies need only 4% of this amount as a loan and thats too much, so is supporting dishonest bankers and bookkeepers who stand behind them as well.  Ovr with your attitude towards the auto workers in this Country I just wonder who you will cheer to see go down next as I know you will. Of course you are a Banker type Bookkeeper who was part of the problem in the US while all the free help went to the imports with free land and many other gifts of cash to locate there. By the way they did not exactly tie with GM as GM actually outsold them by 3000 units that year so maybe you should also do some reading. Ford for example has been quoted as being at least equal to any Japanese vehicle either built in north America or brought in and also the same as GM a vehicle that gives better milage also then even the Civic. Maybe you should check the tech section here more often as well to see just how problems some of the Imports actually have according to their owners. Just how much do you actually hate your fellow Candians in other provinces as you appear to have absolutely No feeling at all for their troubles at all. Just yor own little world and the Imported vehicles you drive is all many of us on see actually see you care for. 

  You are a joke. Now the name calling starts, I guess.  Funny, you didn't mention in your above rant, anything about the fact that Toyota made $17+billion profit on their sales in 2007, while GM sold the same amount (or even 3000 units more?) and lost $37+billion. Didn't think that was worth commenting on? Of course, when your buddies are part of the problem instead of part of the solution, it's time to start the name calling.

I've been called worse by better men than you. 

Facts have never been part of Barrie's modus operandi.....

[RunsinLight]

+1

[barrie1]

Well not matter what Rrocket I have forgotten more about the racing side of things that you will ever have the ability to learn as I have been here from the beginning when the rest of you were mostly in diapers. You are all mostly armchair know-it-all nothing mechanics who have never built an engine or let alone a full vehicle from the ground up. Your views actually mean dick to me as far as how well I will sleep to-night as I will quite well just by writing this alone. I will always stand by the old gaurd and defend our Country and never sell out like so many of you folks already have just with your opinions alone on the auto problems of our fellow Candian workers. Mark my words with which one of your trades is next as I won't be there to help you defend your view at all.  Who'snext as we have already lost many fields of manufacturing in canda that you had NO knowledge of at all. Keep your heads stuck in the sand as usual. 

[rrocket]

Y A W N.........

[KRS]

 To the original point of this thread, I wouldn't be impressed if a car maker apologized. Unless the newer vehicles were a true improvement an apology is of no value.

  On a different subject from reading recent threads I have to ask barrie1, how would you feel about some one buying a Toyota Matrix assembled in Cambridge as opposed to purchasing a Saturn Astra that was assembled in Belgium? I assume that the Cobalt would be the car you would really hope was purchased, but if some one needed a hatchback is it better to buy a car assembled in Canada by a foreign company or an imported car sold by a domestic company?

  I will be honest that, in reading your posts it seem that the important part for you is that the car be sold by the "Domestic Company" regardless of were the car is assembled but i just want to clarify if that is your position.