Author Topic: The "Big 3" Should Apologize  (Read 3194 times)

Offline Craig

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The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« on: December 08, 2008, 09:03:15 pm »
I've said this before in these forums.  If you've ever been burned by a vehicle from one of these manufacturers that seemed to expire before or just after the warranty did, you may know what I mean.  The only way I would ever set foot in another Ford dealership (in my case), is if Ford made a public apology for making a lot of crappy vehicles.

Seems GM is the first company to actually apologize.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/081208/us/usreport_us_gm_ad_1

My bailout criteria does not include Wagoner and friends driving in hybrids from Detroit to Washington (though I'd love to subject him to a Montana with a bad head gasket).  I say make them all apologize for the last 30 years, and for foisting cars on us with outdated engineering, chintzy parts, and leaving quality control to the dealerships.

Offline dorin

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2008, 09:44:24 pm »
It's a start of sorts but Wagoner also needs to resign.  A lot of the GM suckage has happened under his watch and he has negative credibility in terms of a turnaround.
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Offline dorin

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2008, 09:46:41 pm »

Offline rrocket

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2008, 09:47:36 pm »
Nah...they shouldn't apologize.  They should just STFU and start building more cars more people want to buy....

An apology is just lip service....
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Offline TopGun

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2008, 10:39:15 pm »
Nah...they shouldn't apologize.  They should just STFU and start building more cars more people want to buy....

An apology is just lip service....

For sure they should apologize.  Even if they did just start building more cars more people want to buy, they would be behind the 8-ball in how these new products would be perceived.

The psychology of an apology leads to people lowering their self-imposed barriers...and an absolute human desire to "respond in kind".

Continuing on their same path?  Well...that's lip service...
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Offline Mitlov

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2008, 10:41:02 pm »
I think it's a nice gesture.  But overall, I'm more impressed by a tangible improvement in quality (like Ford has done, according to Consumer Reports) than this sort of self-flagellation.  

Though what I would really like to see is Honda apologizing for decades of offerings which failed to meet consumers' torque expectations  ;D
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Offline quadzilla

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2008, 10:55:16 pm »
Or VW for having lights that keep burning out.  ;)

To me an apology means nothing from these people because I'm thinking its only for PR reasons and they truly don't care. If they did care, they would have done something about it sooner rather than later and not collected their fat bonuses.
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Online mmret

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2008, 11:06:34 pm »
Come on, you're not all so naive as to think that an apology actually means something, hmm?
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Offline Wolverine

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2008, 11:08:25 pm »
Today is not about making cars the customer wants. A crisis is a crisis. Toyota is making cars that people want to buy, yet they are renting acres of land to store their cars coming from Japan.

Everybody blames the big 3 for focusing on SUVs and pickups, but hey, they were just making cars that people wanted to buy at that time. They just lacked the ability to see ahead and realize that that scenario wouldn't last forever and the table turned faster than they could predict.

They've made a lot of enhancements and I do believe most of their efforts were made toward the right direction and that most of their products are on par with the products from the competition. But It doesn't matter how hard they try, they are already late to the party. So, only a big helping hand can save them now.

I don't see the point in apologizing, what is done is done, they should better get to work so they don't have to apologize to their stock holders.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 11:11:49 pm by Wolverine »
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Offline rrocket

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 11:15:35 pm »
Today is not about making cars the customer wants. A crisis is a crisis. Toyota is making cars that people want to buy, yet they are renting acres of land to store their cars coming from Japan.

Everybody blames the big 3 for focusing on SUVs and pickups, but hey, they were just making cars that people wanted to buy at that time. They just lacked the ability to see ahead and realize that that scenario wouldn't last forever and the table turned faster than they could predict.

They've made a lot of enhancements and I do believe most of their efforts were made toward the right direction and that most of their products are on par with the products from the competition. But It doesn't matter how hard they try, they are already late to the party. So, only a big helping hand can save them now.

I agree...but Toyota isn't near bankruptcy either.  GM in particular refused to take in and act on the criticism of their cars.  They have a few where they upped the quality, but overall they had the attitude of "We've been making cars for a million years, and have been the world leader forever...so don't tell us how to make cars.". 

Ford on the other hand seemed to take the criticisms quite seriously.  A new line of turbo engines on the way, interior quality that is near top in class for some of their cars, and fresh designs on the way...especially in the small car segment.

People forget than an automaker CAN make leaps and bounds if they really WANTED to.  In the mid 80's, Hyundai was, by far, the WORST car you could buy.  Period.  No one would dispute it.  Now look at them?  With the motivation and good direction from management they are now one of the highest quality cars available.  Interior fit and finish is very, very good.  They are nipping at the heels/surpassing Toyota and Honda in these regards.  If a company like Hyundai can do it......there's is no rexcuse why any of the Big 3 can't either....they just have to WANT to do it.  It was just too easy for them to sit on the asses and hope the SUV/Pickup gravy train would last forever....

Offline Wolverine

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2008, 05:24:35 am »
Today is not about making cars the customer wants. A crisis is a crisis. Toyota is making cars that people want to buy, yet they are renting acres of land to store their cars coming from Japan.

Everybody blames the big 3 for focusing on SUVs and pickups, but hey, they were just making cars that people wanted to buy at that time. They just lacked the ability to see ahead and realize that that scenario wouldn't last forever and the table turned faster than they could predict.

They've made a lot of enhancements and I do believe most of their efforts were made toward the right direction and that most of their products are on par with the products from the competition. But It doesn't matter how hard they try, they are already late to the party. So, only a big helping hand can save them now.

I agree...but Toyota isn't near bankruptcy either.  GM in particular refused to take in and act on the criticism of their cars.  They have a few where they upped the quality, but overall they had the attitude of "We've been making cars for a million years, and have been the world leader forever...so don't tell us how to make cars.". 

Ford on the other hand seemed to take the criticisms quite seriously.  A new line of turbo engines on the way, interior quality that is near top in class for some of their cars, and fresh designs on the way...especially in the small car segment.

People forget than an automaker CAN make leaps and bounds if they really WANTED to.  In the mid 80's, Hyundai was, by far, the WORST car you could buy.  Period.  No one would dispute it.  Now look at them?  With the motivation and good direction from management they are now one of the highest quality cars available.  Interior fit and finish is very, very good.  They are nipping at the heels/surpassing Toyota and Honda in these regards.  If a company like Hyundai can do it......there's is no rexcuse why any of the Big 3 can't either....they just have to WANT to do it.  It was just too easy for them to sit on the asses and hope the SUV/Pickup gravy train would last forever....

You've said it all.

Talking about the gov. loan. From a simple perspective, there's nothing much to lose on the government's side. If the bailout isn't enough, they could get all the money back after the liquidation, i'm pretty sure a lot of money will afloat by then. But I believe the big 3 can make, gonna be a hell of a challenge, but they will make it (crossing the fingers is never too much).

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2008, 07:53:08 am »
Today is not about making cars the customer wants. A crisis is a crisis. Toyota is making cars that people want to buy, yet they are renting acres of land to store their cars coming from Japan.

Everybody blames the big 3 for focusing on SUVs and pickups, but hey, they were just making cars that people wanted to buy at that time. They just lacked the ability to see ahead and realize that that scenario wouldn't last forever and the table turned faster than they could predict.

They've made a lot of enhancements and I do believe most of their efforts were made toward the right direction and that most of their products are on par with the products from the competition. But It doesn't matter how hard they try, they are already late to the party. So, only a big helping hand can save them now.

I don't see the point in apologizing, what is done is done, they should better get to work so they don't have to apologize to their stock holders.

I think that is giving them a free pass.

Lack of fuel efficient product was only one part of what led them to this point and it wasn't even the biggest one.

The massivly bloated organization and dealer network is a huge part of it and in terms of organization LED them to be slow to react.

I took a Master's level policy course in 93. One of the business cases we studied was GM. The reccomendation from nearly everyone in that class was that GM needed to get rid of at least 3 brands. We were all told to find another solution becuase GM would not trim brands.

Everyone outside that organization saw the problem and solution a decade ago. But becuase of the corporate culture at GM they refused to recognize it. Everyone had their own little kingdom. All those little kingdoms made it impossible to react quickly. GM had all the information that the other manufacturers had available to them in terms of changing market needs or quaility (in the 80s when their rep for poor quality was forged) in terms of those things the playing field was EQUAL. Yet they did less with that same information than others.

You can't excuse that by saying most of their efforts were made in the right direction. They clearly were not. Most of their efforts were made towards short term share price  or preservation of the individual "kingdoms"

Apology should be the first stage. BUT framing the apology like we made mistakes In the PAST but that's all in the past now doesn't cut it especially when the people who are responsible for PERPETUATING this culture are the ones making the apology and are still there.

"We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on the core U.S. market,"

You are just realizing this NOW? Like I said a class for of 30 Canadians saw that in 1993 15 years later the CEO of GM is telling us OOPPPS we just realized what was happeneing sorry?

Offline Craig

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 02:18:13 pm »
Why apologize?  Personally, I won't set foot in a Ford dealership again unless I hear Ford admit to past wrongdoings.  Especially if they are rewarded for their actions with bailout money.  I'm aware that others won't agree or don't care, but I do, and I seriously doubt I'm alone.

We're about 2-3 years away from a new vehicle, but if it comes from Ford or from Volvo, Mazda or another manufacturer owned fully or in part by Ford, we aren't going to set foot in a dealership.  If they apologize, we'll look at them.

Offline safristi

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 04:01:52 pm »
apparently U lot are 10 minutes behind the 8 BALL......but a new ad has Wagoner "apologising" and admitting GM facked UP and screwed customers in the "PAST"......
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Offline Wolverine

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 06:00:40 pm »
Why apologize?  Personally, I won't set foot in a Ford dealership again unless I hear Ford admit to past wrongdoings.  Especially if they are rewarded for their actions with bailout money.  I'm aware that others won't agree or don't care, but I do, and I seriously doubt I'm alone.

We're about 2-3 years away from a new vehicle, but if it comes from Ford or from Volvo, Mazda or another manufacturer owned fully or in part by Ford, we aren't going to set foot in a dealership.  If they apologize, we'll look at them.

Sorry, but what you said sounds dumb. So, if they apologize their products become desirable, all of a sudden?

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2008, 07:31:30 pm »
Come on, you're not all so naive as to think that an apology actually means something, hmm?


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Offline barrie1

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2008, 10:17:42 pm »
Having owned one Honda product years ago which did not serve me very well at all or for very long for that matter I am still awaiting for my apology from them. Of course I will never see it or hear it as well. Like many others say about the brands they dislike they will never set foot in that Companys showroom again is the same response from me as well. Rrocket I wonder what kind of markup your company charges on the goods it produces for any of its clients. Could it be as much as 7% or more possibly? I strongely suspect it is so for them to stay in business and cover the cost of wages and the overhead of the machinery and buildings i suspect it has to be.  :)

Offline Craig

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 01:04:21 am »
Why apologize?  Personally, I won't set foot in a Ford dealership again unless I hear Ford admit to past wrongdoings.  Especially if they are rewarded for their actions with bailout money.  I'm aware that others won't agree or don't care, but I do, and I seriously doubt I'm alone.

We're about 2-3 years away from a new vehicle, but if it comes from Ford or from Volvo, Mazda or another manufacturer owned fully or in part by Ford, we aren't going to set foot in a dealership.  If they apologize, we'll look at them.

Sorry, but what you said sounds dumb. So, if they apologize their products become desirable, all of a sudden?

I humbly apologize, but you appear to be an idiot with poor reading comprehension.

I fully admit that some of their new products are more desirable.  I just have no desire to help an automaker who produced vehicles that lead to numerous personal unscheduled trips to the dealership, under warranty or otherwise.  In some circles, an apology carries some weight, and it would be good to see these companies acknowledge their past mistakes.

The attractiveness of the vehicles does not change with an apology, but it might subdue my gag reflex at the thought of giving Ford any more of my money.

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2008, 02:59:13 am »
Nothing is going to change until the domestics began to source top tier parts, but since they have no serious resources to do so they will remain SOL.  They need to produce vehicles that will go a solid ten years without major issues, not excluding electrical and computer related failures; an area that they have done horribly in so far.  Euro cars no better really.
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Offline Wolverine

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Re: The "Big 3" Should Apologize
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2008, 07:13:15 am »
Why apologize?  Personally, I won't set foot in a Ford dealership again unless I hear Ford admit to past wrongdoings.  Especially if they are rewarded for their actions with bailout money.  I'm aware that others won't agree or don't care, but I do, and I seriously doubt I'm alone.

We're about 2-3 years away from a new vehicle, but if it comes from Ford or from Volvo, Mazda or another manufacturer owned fully or in part by Ford, we aren't going to set foot in a dealership.  If they apologize, we'll look at them.

Sorry, but what you said sounds dumb. So, if they apologize their products become desirable, all of a sudden?

I humbly apologize, but you appear to be an idiot with poor reading comprehension.

I fully admit that some of their new products are more desirable.  I just have no desire to help an automaker who produced vehicles that lead to numerous personal unscheduled trips to the dealership, under warranty or otherwise.  In some circles, an apology carries some weight, and it would be good to see these companies acknowledge their past mistakes.

The attractiveness of the vehicles does not change with an apology, but it might subdue my gag reflex at the thought of giving Ford any more of my money.

I must admit I'm not an english expert, it's not my mother tongue and I learned by myself. But anyway, I completely understood your point and my question still remains. I don't read too much about Ford products with quality problems making owners do unscheduled maintenance on their cars.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2008, 09:13:58 pm by Wolverine »