CD Article: 2009 Pontiac G8 V6

[Honda Owner]

GM needs a 2009 K-Car....

And the K-Car wasn't a very good car. It was all about marketing.

Not everybody needs a 1.5 4cyl no matter how much money it saves on gas

Point taken. The idea, then, is to make a 1.5, a 1.8. a 2.0 and 2.4 litre car so customers can trade up. Do any of the American makers have the first two? Does GM have the first three? Then start with V-6 in a premium division, all the way up to V-8 models. Who would have imagined, 25 years ago, that Toyota would be selling cars that cost $100,000 and more? Or they Lexus would be smoking Cadillac in sales? GM gave that market away with the crap they called Cadillac in the 1980s and 1990s.

The American makers stymie me. They are coming out with cars with Moxie (tm) that will never move in numbers to make them any sort of money.

Until 2005, when it went bust, I worked at a GM dealership. What was needed was a product that could go head to head with our main competition, the Corolla and Civic and to a lesser extant the Mazda 3.

Since then we have seen a new Corolla and Civic. A new Cobalt? Nope, all that is promised is the Cruz in 2010 and even it is will probably be late.

Really, they are clueless. That is why that are close to bankruptcy.

[Greg B.]

Not every thread about a Subaru or a Volvo (regardless of the model) degenerates into rants about how they don't offer a competitor with the Fit or the Versa.

True, isn't it? Somehow the Honda generation seems to think that only cars built by the domestic makers ought to meet their odd standards. But more on that later.

I will try not let this get into a rant, but Mitlov, the car business is not about "canyon carving through the twisties with a shift lever that falls readily to hand, piquing the interest of any autophile," it is about people actually walking into dealerships, plunking down their hard earned dollars, and buying cars. It is about making money. Not one of the US makers does this. It is because they do not make products enough people want to buy. Your tax dollars are about to bail these companies out just for this reason. The dealers have been screaming for an entry level product that could compete with Honda and Toyota for the last twenty years and what we got was the Tahoe, Solstice, Camaro and the G8 because Lutz thought he could generate fat profits off of them. And he was totally wrong.

I guess his evil twins must have finagled jobs in product planning at Nissan and Toyota then, because only that could explain their development of things like the Titan, the Tundra, and my favorite example of oriental excess, the Sequoia. But perhaps through some combination of inscrutable engineering genius and mystical good luck, those behemoths get 50mpg highway, right? What? They don't? Really???

That is because for every G8 that is sold, Toyota is moving about a bazillion Yaris sedans with option pack B and accessory floor mats, with service pack. And they're movin' the exact same car in Canada, America, Thailand, the Philippines, South Africa and makin' more money on every one they sell. And for the last 30 years, GM just hasn't gotten this point. This is coming from a person who has worked for both Chrysler and GM and seen them alienate their customers for the last 25 years promising them quality product that was never delivered. Our customers were then delivered to the Honda store down the road. Doesn't anybody get this in America?

Here is the essence of the problem. First, people like HO continue to perpetuate the myth that every domestic car that is sold soon turns into a smoking pile at the side of the road, shedding parts like a dog shedding hair. That is totally false, of course. Did they make some bad cars in the 80s? Yes, unquestionably. Are they still making those cars today? Unquestionably, no. By any objective standard their cars are comparable and, in many cases, superior, to those same mystical offshore brands. But the myth continues to be perpetuated. One can only wonder why.

Secondly, nobody -- not GM, not Toyota, not Honda -- can profitably build cheap cars at average labor rates of $70+ per hour. It just can't be done. There are lots of historical reasons for that labor rate and, yes, the management that approved those rates should be excoriated just as much as people like to scream about the UAW who are being paid at that level. But with the perspective of history it is understandable how that came to happen. It didn't occur overnight. Every new contract negotiated during the good times brought with it more and more escalation in those costs. Perhaps they could have broken the UAW if they took a year-long strike back in the 1960s or 70s. But that management would not have been able to sustain the screams of the shareholders. So they did the only thing they could do -- they settled and ratcheted up the cost structure another notch.

Did GM management make some bad decisions? Absolutely, no question. I have no love for Rick Wagoner or most of his predecessors. Roger Smith is the obvious candidate for chief villain in this scenario. But how long do they have to keep paying for those sins? The sad reality is that the domestic makers seem to have lost most of the Honda generation. It matters not what GM or Ford or Chrysler produces. In a world where the Honda generation truly believes that cars like the Yaris and the Fit are the be-all and end-all of automotive excellence, the domestics have no hope. They cannot build such a sh*tbox profitably, and the cars they can build profitably are not the ones the Honda generation even considers.

The irony is not lost on me that the current generation, so tolerant and forgiving of so many things, is about as resolutely intolerant of the domestic automakers as they are of smokers. It is an odd sort of dichotomy. Some makes can get away with cargo-crushing trunk hinges, park-bench comfortable seats, pop can-thin body metal, and a variety of other liabilities. But a domestic maker introduces a car planned 3 years ago at a time when everyone was urging them to bring that same car to the North American market, and they get blasted for it not being a Yaris. It makes about as much sense as those who think that photos taken with a cellphone camera are as good or better than those taken with a Nikon SLR. But that is the way of the Honda generation.

The world is truly upside-down.

[rrocket]

 In a world where the Honda generation truly believes that cars like the Yaris and the Fit are the be-all and end-all of automotive excellence, the domestics have no hope. They cannot build such a sh*tbox profitably, and the cars they can build profitably are not the ones the Honda generation even considers.

Just like the domestics have been clueless, you too seem to be missing the boat here.  It's because of the lack of efficient, reliable, entry level priced cars that the domestics forced the hand of the "honda generation".  You don't get it.  The people looking for a starter car have possibly saved money for YEARS.  And they want what all of us want when we buy a big ticket item: Best in class, or best bang for the buck.  And the domestics offer next to NOTHING here.  Where do the domestics excel?  Trucks, SUVs, etc..  But by ignoring a significant demographic (Honda Generation) they also ignore the fact that someday these little car buyers won't be entry car buyers, and they will graduate to bigger cars...and trucks. Those ARE segments the domestics do well in.  But once you alienate a group of buyers, how do you get them back?  You have to have something truly exceptional to get someone to cross shop.  And sadly, Ford and Chrysler really don't have vehicles like that (minivan not-withstanding) and GM has a couple (CTS, G8).  Otherwise, people will stay with the brand they are loyal to. Don't blame the Honda Generation for buying cars that are regarded as Best in Class.  Blame the domestics for FORCING them to buy a Fit or Yaris because they really had no other choice in that segment.

[Mitlov]

GM needs a 2009 K-Car....

And the K-Car wasn't a very good car. It was all about marketing.

Not everybody needs a 1.5 4cyl no matter how much money it saves on gas

Point taken. The idea, then, is to make a 1.5, a 1.8. a 2.0 and 2.4 litre car so customers can trade up. Do any of the American makers have the first two? Does GM have the first three? Then start with V-6 in a premium division, all the way up to V-8 models. Who would have imagined, 25 years ago, that Toyota would be selling cars that cost $100,000 and more? Or they Lexus would be smoking Cadillac in sales? GM gave that market away with the crap they called Cadillac in the 1980s and 1990s.

The American makers stymie me. They are coming out with cars with Moxie (tm) that will never move in numbers to make them any sort of money.

Until 2005, when it went bust, I worked at a GM dealership. What was needed was a product that could go head to head with our main competition, the Corolla and Civic and to a lesser extant the Mazda 3.

Since then we have seen a new Corolla and Civic. A new Cobalt? Nope, all that is promised is the Cruz in 2010 and even it is will probably be late.

Really, they are clueless. That is why that are close to bankruptcy.

Reasons why you need to STFU and leave this thread:

You're not talking about the Pontiac G8 at all

This thread is about Pontiac's flagship sedan, the G8.  Specifically, the G8 V6.  The G8 is not a competitor with compacts and subcompacts.  Its competitors, which include import flagship sedans, are ALSO big cars that sell in small numbers and don't come with four-bangers.  Do you rant that only luxury cars should have V6s in threads about the Toyota Avalon?  The Nissan Maxima?  If not, STFU.

You're arguing from inaccurate facts

GM doesn't have anything smaller than 2.2 liters?  Wrong.  GM hasn't introduced a new compact in North America since the Cobalt?  Wrong.  Try the Saturn Astra, a very competitive compact hatchback with a 1.8L four-cylinder.

And for the record, the Chevy Aveo has a 1.6L.

This forum has a sub-forum for discussions about the industry, as opposed to discussions about CanadianDriver CAR REVIEWS, and this isn't it.

This should be self-explanatory.

[rrocket]

Reasons why you need to STFU and leave this thread:

Well MEOW!!!!  Somebody have a bad day??   

[Mitlov]

Reasons why you need to STFU and leave this thread:

Well MEOW!!!!  Somebody have a bad day??   

No, just sick of every single thread on this forum being ruined by "OMG General Motors sux Japanese subcompacts rox LOL" rants.  And don't tell me to just place people on ignore.  These rants, and the counter-rants against Honda and Toyota, so completely hijack threads that all on-topic discussion ceases.

This crap is ruining CTC.  Seriously.

[rrocket]

^^^^Shrug.  Doesn't really bother me.  It's like changing the channel.  I just skim over and read the important items.


I sure hope when we finally meet that I don't ever go off topic and see you go postal......

[TopGun]

Reasons why you need to STFU and leave this thread:

Well MEOW!!!!  Somebody have a bad day??   

This crap is ruining CTC.  Seriously.

Well this channel is pretty entertaining, but let's see if we can bring it back to the G8.

I saw one today in white.  I really like the back end of it...very simple and dare I say Euro looking.  It had lots of road presence, but didn't look as large as it seems to in photos.

The 6 has plenty of power for me and I'd consider one...if it had a manual transmission.  The price does seem quite high to me as the finishing doesn't strike me as being as well done as the Maxima.

[wing]

Sorry I missed this thread today I actually had work to do for once...

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Mitlov and if I had seen this garbage earlier today I would have deleted posts / etc.  No this is not censorship -- the rules state it clearly and this thread should be about the G8, I understand a tangent say 20-30 posts later that always happens, but to bring it up in the 2nd or 3rd post and continue from there adds no value to the discussion.

Please discuss the G8 in this thread further, if you wish to discus the other topic start a new thread it is not difficult just hit the "New topic" button.

Thanks!

[Honda Owner]

Please discuss the G8 in this thread further, if you wish to discus the other topic start a new thread it is not difficult just hit the "New topic" button

The G8 is a wonderful product that will certainly lead GM back down the road of profitability. Oh, and GM launches have plenty of free beer, too.

Here is the essence of the problem. First, people like HO continue to perpetuate the myth that every domestic car that is sold soon turns into a smoking pile at the side of the road, shedding parts like a dog shedding hair

Yes, domestic cars are scions of quality and reliability. Their pesky competition is just paying off organisations like Consumer Reports and JD Power to bad mouth the stellar pieces of engineering that they are. It is all a conspiracy that the "Big 3" have lost more than half their market share to them!

[Greg B.]

Thanks for that tremendously valuable and insightful addition to the conversation. 

[airbalancer]

I sat in one at the dealer
The front eat has a lot travel
I could set the drive seat where I was comfortable and still seat in the rear seat and have room for my legs

[sirAQUAMAN64]

I sat in one at the dealer
The front eat has a lot travel
I could set the drive seat where I was comfortable and still seat in the rear seat and have room for my legs

Yeah, if it weren't for the front sunroof impeding on some headroom the G8 would rank near the top (if not the top) where spaciousness and comfort in an affordable sedan are concerned.

I really dig it overall. Love the stance. Even the nostrils, tho appear to be in the minority there.

Someone needs to buy one on this forum!

[Mitlov]

I really dig it overall. Love the stance. Even the nostrils, tho appear to be in the minority there.

Someone needs to buy one on this forum!

If they offered the G8 with the 3.6L DI engine (base engine on the Camaro) paired with a manual transmission, I likely would.  But I realize that combination wouldn't be a volume seller.  As is, I think it will still do well, since most people don't want manuals anyway.  Chargers and 300s are all over down here, and this is a better car than the Charger IMO.  It's just that nobody was buying ANYTHING when it was released due to a tremendously sharp spike in gas prices (one that has since ended...we filled up my wife's truck last weekend for $1.99 per gallon, roughly 40% of what we were paying this summer).

You know, now that I think about it, I thing GM should consolidate the powertrains from the Camaro into the G8.  As it is, it uses four different engines between the two cars (3.6L DI in the Camaro, 422 hp V8 in both, 3.6L in the G8, 362 hp V8 in the G8).  Why not make the 3.6L DI the base engine for both cars (available MT or AT in both), and the 422 hp V8 the upgraded engine in both cars (available MT or AT in both)?  Considering the aggressive pricing on the Camaro (US$23,000 for the 3.6L DI MT), I don't see why this wouldn't work, even if the G8 was more expensive than the stripped, two-door Camaro.

[Careener]

Someone needs to buy one on this forum!

Talk to me in about a year when the resale value has tanked 

[TopGun]

If they offered the G8 with the 3.6L DI engine (base engine on the Camaro) paired with a manual transmission, I likely would.  But I realize that combination wouldn't be a volume seller.

Me too...a great combo that should be paired up, especially given Pontiac is to be GMs "BMW".  It's espeicially strange as they offer the 6 with a manual in the CTS no?

You know, the Miata wasn't a volume seller (compared to their other vehicles of the time)...but I don't think you'd get much of an arguement NOW that making the Miata was the right choice...and that it could be credited with bringing Mazda to the success they are enjoying today.

[Honda Owner]

Someone needs to buy one on this forum!

Actually, everybody on this forum (except me, that is) need to buy a dozen GM cars. They are wonderfully engineered and by far the most reliable in the industry. Moreover, GM dealers are famous for their courteous and careful attention to all their customer's needs. The training that all GM staff receive, from assembly line to repair technician to sales person is second on none, the bellweather of the entire auto industry.

In a world polluted with awful products made in foreign lands (and Australia isn't foreign, Paul Hogan is too cool) the G8 is by far the finest automobile ever made, along with all the other fine products that loyal Canadian Driver posters must surely buy as soon as possible, Aveos for all!

That, a GM stock is a wonderful buy. I can't understand why Rick Wagoner only today lamented that he has lost money on the GM stock he had bought with his own money! Surely, under the eight years enlightened and fantastically successful leadership of such an able, personable and successful CEO as Rick Wagoner, all driveways will in the next six months be sporting a fine GM product and a great many of them Pontiac G8s, for GM is, always has been and always will be The Mark of Excellence

[Wolfe]

Someone needs to buy one on this forum!

Actually, everybody on this forum (except me, that is) need to buy a dozen GM cars. They are wonderfully engineered and by far the most reliable in the industry. Moreover, GM dealers are famous for their courteous and careful attention to all their customer's needs. The training that all GM staff receive, from assembly line to repair technician to sales person is second on none, the bellweather of the entire auto industry.

In a world polluted with awful products made in foreign lands (and Australia isn't foreign, Paul Hogan is too cool) the G8 is by far the finest automobile ever made, along with all the other fine products that loyal Canadian Driver posters must surely buy as soon as possible, Aveos for all!

That, a GM stock is a wonderful buy. I can't understand why Rick Wagoner only today lamented that he has lost money on the GM stock he had bought with his own money! Surely, under the eight years enlightened and fantastically successful leadership of such an able, personable and successful CEO as Rick Wagoner, all driveways will in the next six months be sporting a fine GM product and a great many of them Pontiac G8s, for GM is, always has been and always will be The Mark of Excellence

FFS take your precious little 1.5L engine and buzz off!

[rrocket]

Man...you guys can't make up your mind.  LOL  He slags GM, you cry.  He says nice things about GM and you cry.  No pleasing you guys...........



(Don't you have to have something bigger than a Miata's 2.0L to tell someone with a 1.5L to get lost?)   

[Wolfe]

(Don't you have to have something bigger than a Miata's 2.0L to tell someone with a 1.5L to get lost?)   

2.0L ? nope, try 1.8L

There's a stroker kit that'll take it up to 2.0L, just $4200.


Here's a turbo miata with the 2.0L stroker kit. Claims 616 RWHP @ 7600 RPM with 27.5lbs of boost

http://globalnetspace.com/miata/


The cheaper option would probably be to swap in an GM LS series V8. Made to measure subframe and conversion kit...



Not that I've thought this out or anything....