Topic: Safe to put your own winter tires on when they have their own rims?

[wing]

Oh and you are thinking about it too much haha, it's easy.  The trolley jack goes on the jack point same as the scissor jack.

[trafsta]

Oh and you are thinking about it too much haha, it's easy.  The trolley jack goes on the jack point same as the scissor jack.

So it only raises 1 tire at a time then, right?

And when the $26 trolley jack from CT says "Should always be used with axle stands (sold separately) for safety" and "Never use to support vehicle" - what does it mean? Can I ignore that? I think I wanna get this $26 jack and the folding chocks... unless someone here thinks I need the axle/jack stands as well.

Btw, if I get some anti seize compound, exactly where does it go? I read in this thread that it goes around the "hub".... EDIT: Nevermind, I think I see where: http://www.miata.net/garage/fronthub/images/anti_seize_large.jpg

Hmmm, I'm learning quite a bit now... maybe I should learn how to change my cars oil on my own too lol

[wing]

Well for safety you should use the stands -- I'm a rebel.

[tpl]

Trafsta: two things.

Unless the manual for your car says so don't put anti-seize on the studs.And the amount shown is too much anyway.    Note that some cars DO suggest a tiny amount of antiseize on the studs.
 Just smear a little around the centre lip in that picture you posted, not the cap, around the lip.  This will helpstop the wheel from getting stuck with gunk and corrosion over the winter

[tortoise]

I guess I gotta read up online as to how to use this stuff (like where do the axle/jack stands go exactly, and where the trolley jack will go, etc)... almost seems easier to just use the stock jack that came with my car since I already know how to use it lol.

Check your owners manual for the jacking points.

[ktm525]

^^Parking brake locks the back tires.

Don't even bother with that POS stock jack.  Go get a trolley jack.  There used to be a real nice one from Costco for like $60....

There a nice low profile one at Costco
It would be nice to have since since I have to run the BMW on 2x10 to get the jack under the car

That is what I bought. I was holding out for an aluminum model but since it never leaves my garage floor I went with the $60 Blackjack. Good for the price.

[ktm525]

It's only untrue to ppl that find it baffling.

When we use an extension on a torque wrench, the torque wrench does not know the extension exists and therefore, cannot account for the extension. If your torque setting is 500 ft-lbs and the extension is as long as the torque wrench, the torque wrench will still think you are tightening to 500 ft-lbs. Meaning the resultant torque at the point where the torque wrench and extension are adjoined is 500 ft-lbs. But, since the extension is as long as the torque wrench, the resultant torque applied at the bolt is doubled or 1,000 ft-lbs.

Here is the formula: M1 = M2 x L1 / L2

Where:

M1 is the torque setting of the wrench.

M2 is the actual torque applied to the nut

L1 is the normal length of the wrench

L2 is the extended length of the wrench (Length of wrench + length of adapter)

Example:
M1=torque wrench setting ?
M2=80 FT-LBS (Desired touque)
L1=18" (Legnth of torque wrench)
L2=22" (Total length of wrench with 4 inch extension added to wrench)

80x18/22=65.45 M1 therefore = 65.45; In otherwords if you want to torque a fastener to 80 FT-LBS using an 18 inch torque wrench with a 4 inch torque extender you will set the wrench to 65.45 FT-LBS

Two additional comments:

1.  if the extension is not held at precisely 90 degrees the torque applied to the fastener will increase even more beyond the formula because now your adding leverage.  So the longer the extension, the more it will deviate from the 90 degree. Therefore, ideally use no extension. 

2.  Try using no extension and then a 10 inch extension.  You can feel the difference in muscle required.

 

This website details out the issue quite nicely.

http://www.algeo.com/~joe/KIAT/kiat_3.htm

[trafsta]

...Just smear a little around the centre lip in that picture you posted, not the cap, around the lip...

Around the lip, not the cap, got it...

Just one more question, whats the lip and whats the cap? 

[mrthompson]

Correct me if I'm wrong, folks...

[wing]

Didn't know antiseize came in a little pouch.  I bought a bottle that will probably last my lifetime haha

[trafsta]

Correct me if I'm wrong, folks...

Oh, ok, I get it. Thanks!

[articsteve]

Artic in your explanation above " extension " refers to a extension of the handle of the wrench not an inline extension between the socket and the torque measuring head of the wrench.  A totally rigid extension between the socket and the wrench head can be considered part of the socket.   At 90 lbs ft a reasonable length 1/2" drive extension is effectively totally rigid. Yes there is slop in the socket to stud, socket to extension,extension to torque wrench but once that slop is taken up the assembly is rigid as seen from the torque measuring device in the torque wrench head.

Also your explanation is correct for the force being applied to the extended "handle"  but a clicker type torque wrench as is generally used doesn't care whether you apply one finger pressure a mile away or some muscle 6" away as the wrench is measuring what is happening at the socket end of that handle.

Artic in your explanation above " extension " refers to a extension of the handle of the wrench not an inline extension between the socket and the torque measuring head of the wrench.

No.  In my explanation the "extension" is the piece that attaches to the socket and then to the torque wrench.  Who would use a 4 inch extension to lengthen the handle of a 18 inch torque wrench.   as per the example.  "Extensions" are placed into sockets to "extend" their reach.  "Extensions" are not available to extend the handle length of a torque wrench.  In a pinch one could use a hollow pipe as a torque wrench handle extender.  I do this occasionally when I use breaker bars.

Take a one inch screw driver and an eight inch screw driver for example.  Which one is easier to use?  The longer one because it transfers more torque.  Same principal applies to using a socket extender. 

Further, I have 3 torque wrenches.  12 inches, 18 inches, 24 inches.  They all measure and apply the same torque if set at X amount.  But they all have different length handles.

Further, socket extension never line up at 90 degrees.  Most ppl use cheap Chinese socket kits with sloppy castings so lots of play/movement to and fro which further cause deviations.

I have given the formula for torque wrench deviations, not to be confused with simply levers or BREAKER BARS.

If one uses a SOCKET EXTENSION between the fastener and the torque wrench pivot point, which is commonly done, one will increase torque from desired setting.

If it makes you feel better I will add;   IMO. 

[ktm525]

Artic in your explanation above " extension " refers to a extension of the handle of the wrench not an inline extension between the socket and the torque measuring head of the wrench.  A totally rigid extension between the socket and the wrench head can be considered part of the socket.   At 90 lbs ft a reasonable length 1/2" drive extension is effectively totally rigid. Yes there is slop in the socket to stud, socket to extension,extension to torque wrench but once that slop is taken up the assembly is rigid as seen from the torque measuring device in the torque wrench head.

Also your explanation is correct for the force being applied to the extended "handle"  but a clicker type torque wrench as is generally used doesn't care whether you apply one finger pressure a mile away or some muscle 6" away as the wrench is measuring what is happening at the socket end of that handle.

Artic in your explanation above " extension " refers to a extension of the handle of the wrench not an inline extension between the socket and the torque measuring head of the wrench.

No.  In my explanation the "extension" is the piece that attaches to the socket and then to the torque wrench.  Who would use a 4 inch extension to lengthen the handle of a 18 inch torque wrench.   as per the example.  "Extensions" are placed into sockets to "extend" their reach.  "Extensions" are not available to extend the handle length of a torque wrench.  In a pinch one could use a hollow pipe as a torque wrench handle extender.  I do this occasionally when I use breaker bars.

Take a one inch screw driver and an eight inch screw driver for example.  Which one is easier to use?  The longer one because it transfers more torque.  Same principal applies to using a socket extender. 

Further, I have 3 torque wrenches.  12 inches, 18 inches, 24 inches.  They all measure and apply the same torque if set at X amount.  But they all have different length handles.

Further, socket extension never line up at 90 degrees.  Most ppl use cheap Chinese socket kits with sloppy castings so lots of play/movement to and fro which further cause deviations.

I have given the formula for torque wrench deviations, not to be confused with simply levers or BREAKER BARS.

If one uses a SOCKET EXTENSION between the fastener and the torque wrench pivot point, which is commonly done, one will increase torque from desired setting.

If it makes you feel better I will add;   IMO. 

I'll disagree. Your screwdriver example is interesting. You state it is "easier to apply more torque with the longer one". This is correct but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is applying more torque, 20 ft lbs with either is the same. Just a little harder to do it with the little one. Any extension between socket and wrench will have no effect on torque (in an ideal world),. I will acknowledge that it is easier to deviate etc out of line with a longer extension which would have the effect of applying less torque on the fastner than what the wrench is saying. IMO. 

Don't we have a physics geek on this board?

[HeliDriver]

No.  In my explanation the "extension" is the piece that attaches to the socket and then to the torque wrench.  Who would use a 4 inch extension to lengthen the handle of a 18 inch torque wrench.   as per the example. 

In your example, L1 is defined as the normal length of the wrench: it is 18". L2 is 22" and is the length of the wrench plus the 4" extension. ... So in your mind, the 1/2" drive stud on the end of the wrench is 18" long?    That makes about as much sense as a long screwdriver applying more torque than a shorter one.

From KTM's link, it is obvious that this is the kind of 4" extension that your example is describing. (Although it is pictured at a 90 degree angle in the diagram, while it would be at 180 degrees in your example)

EDIT: Here's a calculator that demonstartes your example. You can even punch in the numbers to see that it's the same. http://www.belknaptools.com/extcalc.asp

[tpl]

Right SirCivic.    Torque wrenches we are talking about don't work or look like that and thats why Artic is wrong. and he is wrong about screwdrivers for the same reason

In the case of these pesky wheel studs or a screw on the end of a screwdriver,the "extension" does NOT stick out of the side, it is on the axis of the torque measuring device in the torque wrench. I.e the "extension" is ZERO and always is in our case. Why zero? because it is incidental  to the problem that the bolt /stud/socket have a non-zero diameter.    The length of the socket and its extension on the axis of twist could be theoretically infinite.

Don't need a physics geek, a mechanical engineer who can remember some elementary course in mechanics will do.

[articsteve]

So in your mind, the 1/2" drive stud on the end of the wrench is 18" long?

Nope 

Ok, you got the socket on the fastener, you got a 4 inch "extension" between the socket and the pivot point of the 18 torque wrench.  You can characterize it as either a socket extension or extension of the torque wrench.  Take your pic.  (please, show me a picture of a 4 inch extension to the handle side of a torque wrench or even how that would work)

Again I repeat, you have a 1 inch screw driver and you apply as much torque on it as your aching hand can muster.  Screw doesn't move.  You try the same thing with an 8 incher, same "size" like a number 12, and bingo out it comes.

Show me something other than a pic of a kid hanging off a torque wrench handle, that doesn't even have an extension attached to the pivot point, and we will talk. 

For now I'm sticking with that formula over some kid hanging off a torque wrench.  At least most ppl that use 6 inch extensions are over torquing than under torquing which is better than the reverse.

Torque away ppl.      

[tpl]

Artic.  By your logic if you extended the drive shaft of a RWD car and made the car 20 ft longer, you'd get more torque at the differential.     Well fer sure that does not happen.

Your screwdriver analogy is still wrong. You are confusing the mechanical advantage of a bigger handle that you can get a grip on with torque. Opening a tight jar lid the same... one that fits your particular grip is easier to open than one thats too small or too big.


We do not disagree about the sort of extension that you are describing, that is an extension to multiply torque.
as in this article just like yours   http://www.specialpatrolgroup.co.uk/spooky/torque/torque.html
but the original question from me to Trafsta was about a 1/2" drive socket extension like this

[HeliDriver]

[Ok, you got the socket on the fastener, you got a 4 inch "extension" between the socket and the pivot point of the 18 torque wrench.  You can characterize it as either a socket extension or extension of the torque wrench.  Take your pic.  (please, show me a picture of a 4 inch extension to the handle side of a torque wrench or even how that would work)

Christ, this is like trying to reason with the JW's when they come knocking on the door...

Again, click here for the picture: http://www.belknaptools.com/extcalc.asp . (it's a flash player, so I can't paste the image for you)

The extension is not on the handle end, it's on the drive end. And it's not perpendicular to the wrench, it's in line with it. As the numbers prove (go ahead, play around with it), this is exactly the situation your cut and paste "proof" describes. It has nothing to do with the kind of extensions we are talking about here.

[articsteve]

Ok, how about this extension.  I'm glad everything is settled.