Topic: CD Article: 2008 Honda Civic Hybrid

[Autos_Editor]

Test Drive:


While it offers better fuel economy than most cars in Canada, the Civic Hybrid's fuel consumption can vary depending on conditions, reports Editor-in-chief, Greg Wilson.  And its potential fuel savings must be balanced with its higher starting price, he notes.
 More:
Read the article | View the photos | All the Test Drives

[Diesel Advocate]

With the ECOAuto Rebate ending for 2009, this car is really not worth buying as a 2009 as it will take 6 years to get back the premium paid for this vehicle. Diesels on the other hand are cheaper and therefore you the premium paid will be paid back after 3 years and you get similar gas mileage to a Hybrid in "Real-World" driving.

[Gwido]

Additionally, Honda plans to release a cheaper hybrid-only model next spring. I'm suprised that none of the writers mentioned this yet.

[mhaven98]

As an owner of a 2007 Civic Hybrid I have to ask what is wrong with the numbers in this article.  I do 100% agree that weather conditions affect fuel economy.  However, those numbers in the article are very odd to say the least.  Without trying, and I mean without driving any differently than I would with a regular car, I get 4.9L/100km in mixed 50-50 city and highway driving during the warmer days (and yes the AC is on and set to 24C).  If I try to drive conservatively (speed limit, light starts off the light) I can easily obtain 4.4-4.5L/100km.  Maybe there is something wrong with my Hybrid but it gets the EPA posted mileage.  Getting anything over 6L/100 is only something I see in the winter months as the batteries don't work to their full potential until the car warms up.

 

[safristi]

..as an aside found it funny that the AD accompanying this thread says..."The road to HELL is paved with compromises"..yeah and my other SpaceSHIP is a Zargon XXX GargleBlaster GTi

[MSantos_]

As an owner of a 2007 Civic Hybrid I have to ask what is wrong with the numbers in this article. ...

I completely and sadly agree.  I own 2 Civic Hybrids and I cannot get such fuel economy even in the worst of moments on any of them. 

Now, I am not a mainstream car expert, nor do I make a living out of reviewing cars like the various editors at this site do but judging from the State of Charge display on the reviewed unit it looks as if it was driven in manner inconsistent with its role and design goals.  I am sorry, but the car in this review tells a story that many experienced HCH owners will understand and it is neither a pretty nor a happy story. Sorry.
In all fairness, perhaps most Canadians drive aggressively and in a "0-60" culture that many grew up in, it is best to disregard the primary design attributes of these cars. But, if this is the case then why review these vehicles at all if we end up missing the strongest points entirely? 

I am sure many will agree that to truly assess the benefits of a car like, say a Porche, you must at some point take it to the track, put a helmet on and test the performance limits of the car, correct?  Not doing so, is an omission of its primary performance oriented design attributes.
And if this is even remotely true, then why are we ignoring the fuel economy and environmental performance limits of this Civic Hybrid?  For many seeking to buy a hybrid like the HCH or Prius, MPG and CO2/km are the new HP and 0-60 times, and because of this and their low production volumes they are not for everybody but those who value the technology and its implicit potential.  Oh well.   


Cheers;

MSantos

[MSantos_]

Perhaps the following can act as a demonstration of what an expert and informative review of the civic hybrid looks like (same color and model year) in the hands of a world class expert:

www . cleanmpg . com
/ forums
/
showthread.php?t=15422

Sorry, about the URL formatting.

I just wish our Canadian automotive media was willing to learn and as forward looking to produce reviews of this informational value.  Maybe one day, maybe a new generation, maybe if the gas prices get to $2.5/liter... maybe


Cheers;

MSantos

[philmcneal]

i like article good work!

[Eric Green]

M. Santos:

Great link., thx. I'm not sold on the benefits of hybrid (a diesel-hybrid, maybe; Volt-type vehicle for urban-only, probably, have to wait and see), but this CleanMPG piece was certainly thorough.

Our VW Polo petrol in the NL, driven in hwy/urban with the foot pretty much to the floor, got 51CDN MPG, so whether the additional complexity in manufacturing and drivetrain makes a petrol-hybrid a worthwhile concept in non-urban driving... I'd prefer a small non-Blue diesel with a genuine manual transmission, geared for 2500rpm at 120kph to take advantage of a diesel's torque.

[safristi]

  like the Good Dr."GREEN!!!" said.........diesel gives uz zee BIG BUMP...i know it's comingz

[johngenx]

$29,148 for the Hybrid (with GST) vs. the $20,700 for our Corolla meant the Civic carried a $8448 premium.  Sure it has a few more goodies, but the small marginal increase in fuel economy means it would be unlikely that we would have ever saved back the premium.  Based on the CD results, I would only see ~1.0-1.5L/100km gain over the Toyota.

[msantos]

Hi Eric:

I agree, the current hybrids are not for everyone. Not only because their production numbers are too low, but also because their power trains require drivers that are willing to drive by the hybrid gauges. 
If you "just drive them" as many in the automotive media often do then you are not doing what the car's designers intended, especially if your objective is to consume and pollute the least.  Yes, you get better mileage than the petrol-only counterpart but not enough to justify the extra cost of the technology.   

Yes, the CleanMPG piece was very thorough as they always are, but that is what an expert review and helpful looks like.  They know the cars and the technology and their tests intersect with the design goals of the car.  That is expertise.

Check out the text book review they did of a diesel:
www .cleanmpg. com
/forums/
showthread.php?t=6526

I admit drooling over this Civic Diesel many times and I just hope their brought it over to Canada.
I am a firm believer in Diesel too, but it still has its challenges - especially in this world we live in - which isn't getting any better.  I just hope they overcome these challenges as soon as possible because we need many more solutions than what we got today.  But I agree, that for the average person who really does not care as much about the environment but still want to save on gas, then a fuel efficient Diesel may be the ultimate car.

johngenx:

Quite right but the Civic Hybrid has equipment and amenities you'll never find in a $20,000 Corolla.  Then you would have to factor the ecoAuto rebate of $4000 many would get back for the 2008 models and that would bring the total cost difference further down.
Second, you have to consider the real reason why you are buying a fuel efficient hybrid:  Is it just to save you money and nothing more?  If so then that's a bad call. Period. And in that case you're better off with a Yaris or a stripped down Corolla.  They are great cars for that alone.

But most people who purchase a high fe hybrid do it for more reasons and many of these reasons are not answered by any car other than a fuel electric or a Tier2-Bin2 Civic hybrid.

And lastly, assuming that you learn to drive the corolla really well with a few fuel efficient techniques under your belt, what fuel economy do you think you can get with it?  (the 50 liter challenge is underwhelming since the Corolla is worth a lot more than what they got.)
Now, what do you think you'll get with a Civic Hybrid if you learn to drive it really well?

I think you too will agree the numbers will show the difference between the two cars not only in the initial price but also in fe.

Cheers;

MSantos

[johngenx]

The Eco Auto Rebate for the Civic Hybrid is $2000.  I live in Alberta, and we have no further rebates, so $4000 is not accurate in my case.

I understand the market for the hybrid, but I am looking for a balance of economy and features.  I didn't pay $20K flat for a "stripped down" Corolla, but instead have many options including AT/AC/Cruise/PW/Keyless/etc., and so on.  The Civic Hybrid has a few more features, but not many.

As for the fuel economy advantage of the Civic, it might be 2.0L/100km, but not much more.  I routinely achieve mid 6's in the city and 5.0 on the highway.  You can't drive as I do (not "hypermiling" but not lead-footing either) and expect mileage much better than 4.5 city, and I highly doubt a Civic Hybrid would realistically be less than 3.0 on the highway.  Few cars in the world are under 3L/100km.  A great percentage of my km's are on the highway, so overall I doubt the Hybrid would offer much in terms of overall savings for me.

I'm not saying that the Hybrid ain't a great car/idea.  What I am saying is that there are lots of people like me that have extremely fuel efficient vehicles that don't give up convenience features and spend far less than you have to for a hybrid.

[msantos]

Agreed.  There's little incentive for anyone owning a normal Corolla or Civic to seek switching to a hybrid.

But speaking of numbers:

I routinely get 3.6-3.9 L/100km tanks in 100% city driving in the summer just driving by the instruments and posted speed limit.  But If I am doing a demonstration for new customers or the Canadian Press, I usually crank out 2.7-2.9 L/100km end-to-end urban segments with some hypermiling techniques (DWB, DWL, Mid3's, ev-gliding and some P&G).

On the highway, I can usually pull out averages of 3.1 to 3.6 L/100km traveling at speeds that vary from 85km/h all the way to 105 km/h - depnding on what it takes to keep the SAHM mode on. But, if I do not stop at all and I am lucky enough to keep a steady state, I can have sustained end-to-end segments in the 2.7 to 2.9 L/100km range at the same speeds I mentioned.

Cheers;

MSantos