CD Article: Porsche Boxster, 1997-2004

[Giant Dwarf]

German automakers are feeling the same pressure as North America with rising labour costs from strong unions and having to cut corners in component quality.

The big difference is that the German car co's management has paid attention to the wants and demands of consumers and reacted accordingly... thus, Porsche and BMW are remarkably profitable companies while the N.A. companies continue to flounder and head-scratch years later...

In my admittedly limited experience with German cars versus Japanese cars, it's always the electrical gremlins that sully the experience.  My BMW mechanically felt as indestructable at 140,000 kms when I traded it in as it did at 50,000 kms when I bought it.  It's the incredible driving experience one gets from those cars (such solidity and a feeling that cars are meant to be driven, not just gently fiddled with like so many fragile-feeling Japanese cars) that makes me lust over having another BMW (or if I'm really lucky, a Porsche) despite knowing the added costs and likely electrical flaws I'll encounter.   

[TopGun]

German automakers are feeling the same pressure as North America with rising labour costs from strong unions and having to cut corners in component quality.

The big difference is that the German car co's management has paid attention to the wants and demands of consumers and reacted accordingly... thus, Porsche and BMW are remarkably profitable companies while the N.A. companies continue to flounder and head-scratch years later...

In my admittedly limited experience with German cars versus Japanese cars, it's always the electrical gremlins that sully the experience.  My BMW mechanically felt as indestructable at 140,000 kms when I traded it in as it did at 50,000 kms when I bought it.  It's the incredible driving experience one gets from those cars (such solidity and a feeling that cars are meant to be driven, not just gently fiddled with like so many fragile-feeling Japanese cars) that makes me lust over having another BMW (or if I'm really lucky, a Porsche) despite knowing the added costs and likely electrical flaws I'll encounter.   

   My German car experience is limited to the Minis...and they've both been fairly new, low km cars.

Perhaps you believe, as I do, the Mazdas offer a good blend of the Japanese car reliability and value with the essence of a BMW driving experience.

The Protege5, the Miata, and now the RX-8 seem to handle very, very well without beating you up in the suspension department...something I think BMW does very well.

[Giant Dwarf]

Perhaps you believe, as I do, the Mazdas offer a good blend of the Japanese car reliability and value with the essence of a BMW driving experience.

The Protege5, the Miata, and now the RX-8 seem to handle very, very well without beating you up in the suspension department...something I think BMW does very well.

You're exactly right -- now if Mazda could just build a bit more of that overall, solid feeling (and considerably better dealerships), we'd be all set. 

[Thinking Out Loud]

Perhaps you believe, as I do, the Mazdas offer a good blend of the Japanese car reliability and value with the essence of a BMW driving experience.

The Protege5, the Miata, and now the RX-8 seem to handle very, very well without beating you up in the suspension department...something I think BMW does very well.

You're exactly right -- now if Mazda could just build a bit more of that overall, solid feeling (and considerably better dealerships), we'd be all set. 

Mazda had it right - with Toynda owning 1 & 2, why be the third choice in safe and reliable motoring when you will really never usurp the throne?  Be No. 1 as everyone's affordable BMW, with Japanese reliability.

[Mitlov]

I agree with him about that comment. I too, don't see why German engineering is touted as being superior or sought after. Maybe back in the old days German cars were built a lot stronger. But my experience proves otherwise, maybe I got a lemon or maybe I was too hard on the car. 

Some people think there's a whole lot more to a "well-engineered car" than good reliability.  This car is for those who do.  For those who don't, there's always the Toyota Corolla.

[Snowman]

I agree with him about that comment. I too, don't see why German engineering is touted as being superior or sought after. Maybe back in the old days German cars were built a lot stronger. But my experience proves otherwise, maybe I got a lemon or maybe I was too hard on the car. 

Some people think there's a whole lot more to a "well-engineered car" than good reliability.  This car is for those who do.  For those who don't, there's always the Toyota Corolla.

I’m not going to speak for engineers, but having worked in engineering industry for +25 year premature component failure is not a key indicator of good engineering. Considering the premium prices demanded for German made cars I would expect the opposite to be true. Why can the Japanese deliver both?

[Giant Dwarf]

I agree with him about that comment. I too, don't see why German engineering is touted as being superior or sought after. Maybe back in the old days German cars were built a lot stronger. But my experience proves otherwise, maybe I got a lemon or maybe I was too hard on the car. 

Some people think there's a whole lot more to a "well-engineered car" than good reliability.  This car is for those who do.  For those who don't, there's always the Toyota Corolla.

I’m not going to speak for engineers, but having worked in engineering industry for +25 year premature component failure is not a key indicator of good engineering. Considering the premium prices demanded for German made cars I would expect the opposite to be true. Why can the Japanese deliver both?

Why can't Japanese-company cars deliver the solidity and feeling that seems inherent in every German car?

[Snowman]

I agree with him about that comment. I too, don't see why German engineering is touted as being superior or sought after. Maybe back in the old days German cars were built a lot stronger. But my experience proves otherwise, maybe I got a lemon or maybe I was too hard on the car. 

Some people think there's a whole lot more to a "well-engineered car" than good reliability.  This car is for those who do.  For those who don't, there's always the Toyota Corolla.

I’m not going to speak for engineers, but having worked in engineering industry for +25 year premature component failure is not a key indicator of good engineering. Considering the premium prices demanded for German made cars I would expect the opposite to be true. Why can the Japanese deliver both?

Why can't Japanese-company cars deliver the solidity and feeling that seems inherent in every German car?

Please describe this “solid” feeling for me. Is it structural rigidity, sound deadening material, lack of rattles and squeaks? I have driven VW, BWM, MB, and Audi I don’t understand 

[ovr50]

 Snowman - "I have driven VW, BWM, MB, and Audi I don’t understand"

Next time, try BMW instead of the relatively unknown BWM.....

 

On a serious note, I do truly believe that the upper end German cars do feel different from the Japanese upper end cars. Hard to describe, but is there. For example, several years ago I had occasion to drive an older (sometime in the 90s model) of 325i. At the time, wife was driving the '06 Solara. These two felt very different, and it was not just one being RWD vs FWD. Although the 325 was close to 10 years old, it had a superior driving "feel" to it. Can't explain it any better...know you are diehard Subie afficianado (sic), Snowy, but they do feel "different".

[Brigitte]

Despite my limited, nine-year experience with German cars (I've only owned Audi and VW during that time), for me, the difference is in a distinct road feel and the sensation that the car is heavy and solidly planted.  When I test-drove a Mazda 3 last year, that feeling ws completely absent, and the difference between it and old Miss Jetta was glaringly apparent.

[Snowman]

Snowman - "I have driven VW, BWM, MB, and Audi I don’t understand"

Next time, try BMW instead of the relatively unknown BWM.....

 

On a serious note, I do truly believe that the upper end German cars do feel different from the Japanese upper end cars. Hard to describe, but is there. For example, several years ago I had occasion to drive an older (sometime in the 90s model) of 325i. At the time, wife was driving the '06 Solara. These two felt very different, and it was not just one being RWD vs FWD. Although the 325 was close to 10 years old, it had a superior driving "feel" to it. Can't explain it any better...know you are diehard Subie afficianado (sic), Snowy, but they do feel "different".

 

[safristi]

..there's a wee car running bye the front door lock in Pic 1........

[Turbo Bob]

Quick, a Blues Brother is stealing the Beemer!

 

[Brigitte]

Quick, a Blues Brother is stealing the Beemer!

 

I agree.  That's trouble right there, with a capital 'T'.... 

I'm still perplexed that you don't see the difference, Snowy, between Rut Ro and that car.  Of all people...   

Of course, the white pants might have something to do with it.   

[Mitlov]

I’m not going to speak for engineers, but having worked in engineering industry for +25 year premature component failure is not a key indicator of good engineering. Considering the premium prices demanded for German made cars I would expect the opposite to be true. Why can the Japanese deliver both?

So do you think that the AK-47 is the best-engineered rifle on the planet?  Because my understanding is that it's more reliable and durable than more refined options from the M-16 to the G36.

Maybe reliability is not the only facet that determines engineering?  You're treating it as completely determinative over all other factors, from good steering feel to a remarkable combination of handling and ride quality.  I think it's one factor out of many to consider.

[Snowman]

Quick, a Blues Brother is stealing the Beemer!

 

I agree.  That's trouble right there, with a capital 'T'.... 

I'm still perplexed that you don't see the difference, Snowy, between Rut Ro and that car.  Of all people...   

Of course, the white pants might have something to do with it.   

White shorts..white shorts. There is a big difference between Rut Ro and the 535i. I wish I could get my hands on an IS 350 for comparison.

[Snowman]

I’m not going to speak for engineers, but having worked in engineering industry for +25 year premature component failure is not a key indicator of good engineering. Considering the premium prices demanded for German made cars I would expect the opposite to be true. Why can the Japanese deliver both?

So do you think that the AK-47 is the best-engineered rifle on the planet?  Because my understanding is that it's more reliable and durable than more refined options from the M-16 to the G36.

Maybe reliability is not the only facet that determines engineering?  You're treating it as completely determinative over all other factors, from good steering feel to a remarkable combination of handling and ride quality.  I think it's one factor out of many to consider.

When firing a gun I think reliability is a good thing  IMO enjoying the engineered product, whatever that may be, knowing it will withstand abuse or day to day wear and tear is important to me. If the tale of the tape is similar then the execution becomes less important and “feel” is an intangible measurement IMO.

[Giant Dwarf]

You're right... feel is an intangible quality.  And much like the difference between Crown Royal and The Macallan 18, or a Timex and a Tag, there are differences (often subtle ones) that only those of us who are a little more refined can appreciate I guess.    

Bridge, funny you should mention the Mazda3 -- of the Japanese cars I've driven lately, it's the most Euro-feeling. 

Within the past few weeks, one of my friends bought a new MazdaSpeed3, another bought a new GTI.  Both about the same cost.  Both in the same "sporty hatchback" class... but the difference in feel and finish between the two is incredible.  The design, materials, layout and 'solid feel' of the GTI makes it feel like it's worth about $10k more than the MazdaSpeed.  Having said that, for my money, I think I'd probably have chosen the MazdaSpeed, for the same silly reasons a lot of us would -- more power IS more power.   

[Mitlov]

When firing a gun I think reliability is a good thing  IMO enjoying the engineered product, whatever that may be, knowing it will withstand abuse or day to day wear and tear is important to me. If the tale of the tape is similar then the execution becomes less important and “feel” is an intangible measurement IMO.

Then stay the heck away from cars like the 3-Series, Boxster, and 911.  Those cars cater to people who put a priority on execution and feel.  The "German engineering" you scoff at is largely a question of execution and feel.  You personally may not care about those factors, but you shouldn't deny that they exist.  A Boxster may not be objectively faster than, say, a supercharged Miata, but feel and execution are not going to be the same at all.

[Mitlov]

For comparison, here is C&D's summary of the Boxster while putting it on their 10 best cars list:

Although plenty powerful, with either 245 or 295 mid-mounted horsepower ready to thrust it forward when the driver flexes his right foot, the magic of the Boxster—and any Porsche—is in its balanced handling and sublime control responses. Turn the steering wheel to carve the Boxster into a corner, and it responds immediately and accurately while telegraphing the car’s behavior directly to your fingertips. Squeeze the brake pedal, and the Boxster scrubs speed in perfect proportion to your pressure on the pedal. When you shift gears, you can almost feel the teeth meshing in the transmission. Making a sensitive driver smile is what the Boxster is all about.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/best_worst_lists/2008_10best_cars_10best_cars/2008_porsche_boxster_and_cayman_10best_cars

C&D's conclusion to their long-term test in a Boxster:

As one staffer put it, "Having a Porsche in the long-term fleet is critical because whenever you want a reminder of how the perfect car drives, what benchmark steering, brakes, and handling feel like, or how a sports car is supposed to sound, just grab the keys to the Boxster, and all other cars suddenly don't measure up." Dear Porsche: May we have another?

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/hot_lists/high_performance/porsche_file/2005_porsche_boxster_s_long_term_road_test+t-rants_and_raves+page-2.html

Feel and execution, feel and execution...some do appreciate it.