Topic: Production Volt

[safristi]

...Notice how the VOLT has morphed from a GLAMOUR_GHINI...to a PRIUS...... the swoopy shape and glam ship has become an EGG sack-LY copy of a PRIUS MOBILE...rounded skinny tyres low Cd barfmobile....and costing $60K too wow watta deal....maybe the $7,500 Congressional TAX rebate can bring it down to a maneagable $50K or so.... ....

  I hereby rename it the  VOLTE FACE.....

[kevlar]

“ … we need to know how many watts/kilowatts it takes to charge a Volt.  9 hours supposedly...But how much does it draw in 9 hours....I have a 10,000 watt sauna heater at home than spins the hydro meter like mad when it's turned on....LOL… “ – rrocket

Judging from what GM said so far the Volt consumes about 8KWH of energy to go 40 miles (64 kms), you have to keep it plugged in for 8 hours (during off-peak hours) drawing slightly more than 1KW to charge that amount of electricity.  The charging time will be 4 hours or shorter if plugged in to a 220V outlet drawing 2KW+.  This power draw is similar to an electric space heater.  Even if 1 million of these cars are charging at the same time, the power requirement is 1GW, which is much, much lower than the surplus during off-peak hours. (I think Ontario Hydro companies have more than 10GW of surplus combined. They will be more than happy to sell the surplus energy at a greatly reduced rate.  You see, the output of power plants especially nuke and coal-fired plants cannot be easily adjusted.  They have to keep generating.  You do not want to have the Chernobyl disaster in Pickering.

The advantage of electric automobiles like the Volt is it uses otherwise wasted energy.  So there is a net reduction in both energy use and CO2 emission.

you made a very good point with regards to energy needing to be generated continually, even during off hours.  unfortunately,  all of the commuting cars in toronto probably each do on average 30-40km or more, one way. this means each car will be charging throughout day, not just during off hours.  moving in this direction only means we become more and more reliant on the a massive grid system, nuclear power plants, pit mining and the creation of more toxic waste left from the battery.  wouldn't bio diesel be a much more viable solution to our transportation and home heating needs?   as pointed out by mitlov, biodiesel is portable and easily created locally throughout the world.   and if algae was the bio diesel being used it could be produced anywhere in the world esp. africa where sun light is abundant.  can you imagine?  the poorest continent of the world becomes the biggest producer of bio diesel while the middle east becomes just another player in the energy business.  most of the other alternative sources of energy mentioned require a certain degree of decentralization of the distribution of energy, so biodiesel would be a good compliment to these other sources such as wind, geothermal etc

[tpl]

Kevlar. Lets not cut down African forests to grow stuff ( Jojoba beans?) for Biodiesel. 
 Rather genetically engineer some plant that can grow in deserts  and that is not edible by Goats or Locusts.   To be REALLY clever lets make a plant that can have oils extracted for Biodiesel and the remains made into Ethanol.  I am sure if one presented a biology team with money and a place to try to grow stuff without interference ( In the Canadian context maybe the tobacco country in S. Ont). They would come up with something in a few years.

[Mitlov]

Kevlar. Lets not cut down African forests to grow stuff ( Jojoba beans?) for Biodiesel. 

That's not what I read at all.  I understood that he was suggesting setting up tube farms to grow algae for biodiesel out in the sunny, bare parts of the African countryside (i.e., much of it).  I don't think anybody was advocating clearcutting forests to set up plantations.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Here's how they are proposing to produce bio-diesel. I love how straight forward this is.

BOSTON — Isaac Berzin is a big fan of algae. The tiny, single-celled plant, he says, could transform the world's energy needs and cut global warming.
 
Overshadowed by a multibillion-dollar push into other "clean-coal" technologies, a handful of tiny companies are racing to create an even cleaner, greener process using the same slimy stuff that thrives in the world's oceans.

Enter Dr. Berzin, a rocket scientist at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. About three years ago, while working on an experiment for growing algae on the International Space Station, he came up with the idea for using it to clean up power-plant exhaust.

If he could find the right strain of algae, he figured he could turn the nation's greenhouse-gas-belching power plants into clean-green generators with an attached algae farm next door.

"This is a big idea," Berzin says, "a really powerful idea."

And one that's taken him to the top — a rooftop. Bolted onto the exhaust stacks of a brick-and-glass 20-megawatt power plant behind MIT's campus are rows of fat, clear tubes, each with green algae soup simmering inside.

Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40% less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86% less nitrous oxide.

After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials — one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation.

Being a good Samaritan on air quality usually costs a bundle. But Berzin's pitch is one hard-nosed utility executives and climate-change skeptics might like: It can make a tidy profit.

"You want to do good for the environment, of course, but we're not forcing people to do it for that reason — and that's the key," says the founder of GreenFuel Technologies, in Cambridge, Mass. "We're showing them how they can help the environment and make money at the same time."

GreenFuel has already garnered $11 million in venture capital funding and is conducting a field trial at a 1,000 megawatt power plant owned by a major southwestern power company. Next year, GreenFuel expects two to seven more such demo projects scaling up to a full pro- duction system by 2009.

Even though it's early yet, and may be a long shot, "the technology is quite fascinating," says Barry Worthington, executive director of US Energy Association in Washington, which represents electric utilities, government agencies, and the oil and gas industry.

One key is selecting an algae with a high oil density — about 50% of its weight. Because this kind of algae also grows so fast, it can produce 15,000 gallons of biodiesel per acre. Just 60 gallons are produced from soybeans, which along with corn are the major biodiesel crops today.

Greenfuel isn't alone in the algae-to-oil race. Last month, Greenshift Corporation, a Mount Arlington, N.J., technology incubator company, licensed CO2-gobbling algae technology that uses a screen-like algal filter. It was developed by David Bayless, a researcher at Ohio University.

A prototype is capable of handling 140 cubic meters of flue gas per minute, an amount equal to the exhaust from 50 cars or a 3-megawatt power plant, Greenshift said in a statement.

For his part, Berzin calculates that just one 1,000 megawatt power plant using his system could produce more than 40 million gallons of biodiesel and 50 million gallons of ethanol a year. That would require a 2,000-acre "farm" of algae-filled tubes near the power plant. There are nearly 1,000 power plants nationwide with enough space nearby for a few hundred to a few thousand acres to grow algae and make a good profit, he says.

Energy security advocates like the idea because algae can reduce US dependence on foreign oil. "There's a lot of interest in algae right now," says John Sheehan, who helped lead the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) research project into using algae on smokestack emissions until budget cuts ended the program in 1996.

In 1990, Sheehan's NREL program calculated that just 15,000 square miles of desert (the Sonoran desert in California and Arizona is more than eight times that size) could grow enough algae to replace nearly all of the nation's current diesel requirements.

"I've had quite a few phone calls recently about it," says Mr. Sheehan. "This is not an outlandish idea at all."

http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2006-01-10-algae-powerplants_x.htm

[tpl]

I didn't think that Kevlar would cut down rain forests but you never know if someone would decide that adding some chopped up trees to the algae food would improve the yield.


After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials — one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation.


perfect.

[Leviathan]

unfortunately,  all of the commuting cars in toronto probably each do on average 30-40km or more, one way. this means each car will be charging throughout day, not just during off hours.  moving in this direction only means we become more and more reliant on the a massive grid system, nuclear power plants, pit mining and the creation of more toxic waste left from the battery.

GM says that 75% of drivers go 40miles or less per day so they'll have most of the TO commuters covered. For the other 25% they don't need to charge the Volt during the day because the gas generator will get you home. That point seems to be overlooked so here it is again:  the gas generator will get you home. When the gas generator is running GM says it'll get about 50mpUSg or 4.7L/100Km. If our hypothetical TO commuter is doing 100Kms then the first 60Kms will use 0L of gas, the next 40Kms will use about 2L and the total 100Kms trip gas consumption is 2L. 2L/100Kms = 117mpUSg or 141mpIMPg.

Edit: Add in cost of charging. 100Kms using 2L @ $1.30 (2008 average I've paid) $2.60 + 8kWh @ $.0655/kWh (my last bill) = $3.13. Equivalence in terms of gas $3.13/$1.30 = 2.4L. 2.4L/100Km, 98mpUSg, 117mpIMPg

The batteries will be recycled/re-purposed, not tossed into a landfill.

[TopGun]

I don't have any numbers to compare relative cost, though.

Which is what always happens in these kinds of discussions...turning these into the same philosophical discussions over and over again.  (No, not always with you Mitlov!)

...Volt consumes about 8KWH of energy to go 40 miles (64 kms),...plugged in for 8 hours (during off-peak hours) ...4 hours ...if plugged in to a 220V outlet drawing 2KW+.  This power draw is similar to an electric space heater.  Even if 1 million of these cars are charging at the same time, the power requirement is 1GW, which is much, much lower than the surplus during off-peak hours.

Leads to a much better discussion!!!

[gotak]

Alternative to wind farms and nuke power: http://www.stirlingenergy.com/

I think it's a brilliant idea. Although might be harder to apply in our great white north in the winter. I suppose it's not great chore to clear out the snow from the reflectors thought?

[airbalancer]

Alternative to wind farms and nuke power: http://www.stirlingenergy.com/

I think it's a brilliant idea. Although might be harder to apply in our great white north in the winter. I suppose it's not great chore to clear out the snow from the reflectors thought?

here a site that gives wind & daylight hours in Canada http://atlas.nrcan.gc.ca/site/english/maps/archives/3rdedition/environment/climate/020?maxwidth=1200&maxheight=1000&mode=navigator&upperleftx=0&upperlefty=0&lowerrightx=3968&lowerrighty=2944&mag=0.0625

[safristi]

..Can I take you gentemen's orders THEN   $59,999 ..going ONCE..... going twice... Ooops the reserve wasn't reached.....there woz too much algae and glare from the solar panels and cross_winds from the Wind Farms....wot the fack is wrong with NUKES...U all scared by a 40 year old 3 Mile Island Movie when NO one suffered ANYTHING...and a collapsing Russian country unregulated -pit.......talk to France those bastions of savoire Faire...runs on Nukes......as do half the World NO PROBLEMO......drill the arse outta the best POWER we have ...OIL...and then by the times it gone hopefully these (or better) non Pie in the sky energy will be available but one thing U can BET ON..it's whatever IT IS ...is gonna be multiples more expensive than DINO JUICE and thems the straight talkin TRUTHINESS ......

[Snowman]

I can’t wait until some of these technologies prove to be viable so commercial production of the
plants begin so we miners can step up production of metals and deplete the non renewable resources faster.

[kevlar]

snowman.   think LED lighting.  they use a tiny fraction of energy that incandescent uses and now almost 50 percent less than florescent.  i just don't think it is very wise at this stage to put all of our energy needs on one grid.   diesel and biodiesel would give us a substantial increase in mpg and reduction in co2.    both of these technologies are very viable right now.     

[airbalancer]

LED lights suck at moment
I have yet seen one that gives off a good light. At least in a flashlight, not bad to light up a spot, but does not light up an area
If anyone know of a good led bulb, post a link

[safristi]

..LED ZEPPELIN........great airships.............. H2 @ it's BEST.........

[kevlar]

LED lights suck at moment
I have yet seen one that gives off a good light. At least in a flashlight, not bad to light up a spot, but does not light up an area
If anyone know of a good led bulb, post a link

actually you can create any colour you like with LEDs. many of the new panels of LEDs are perfectly white light.  they are becoming very common in the film industry and in higher end lighting fixtures in the past couple of years.   the ones in flashlights are too blue and are a terrible example of LED technology.  the manufacturer chose to reduce the output of the LEDs to increase battery life.   LED's lifespan are incredibly long too.   

[tpl]

I would like some LED lights that:
- fit in a standard socket ( the power supply in the base like a compact fluorescent
- produce as much light as a 9/11/13 watt CF. I.e enough for the use to which those lights   are put.
- various colour temperatures as the CF bulbs are now  ( warm white, daylight etc)


I have seen a "cottage industry " guy at our local home show selling them but in very limited supply.  But why is it taking so long for a major light bulb mfr to get them on the shelves at Home Depot.  I realize that they will be expensive at first just as the compact fluorescents were...so what.

[airbalancer]

LED lights suck at moment
I have yet seen one that gives off a good light. At least in a flashlight, not bad to light up a spot, but does not light up an area
If anyone know of a good led bulb, post a link

actually you can create any colour you like with LEDs. many of the new panels of LEDs are perfectly white light.  they are becoming very common in the film industry and in higher end lighting fixtures in the past couple of years.   the ones in flashlights are too blue and are a terrible example of LED technology.  the manufacturer chose to reduce the output of the LEDs to increase battery life.   LED's lifespan are incredibly long too.   

The hard part was making white leds, red has been around since the early '70's

[EV Dan]

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/09/20/video-production-chevy-volt-on-the-road/

- speaks for itself.
From what I can see it may well become the new Hollywood Tesla green icon, for supporting role actors that is  I bet the displays alone cost a few grand, so there is room for GM to bring the price down  Overall it looks very high tech and futuristic.

[tpl]

i bet the displays cost $20 if that. Just the same stuff as a navi display or a environmentally hardened  computer display. The software that drives them and the sensors to provide the inputs may cost a bit more tho'