Topic: Production Volt

[rrocket]

.  I suspect it's also very cost-efficient when compared to solar and wind power creating electricity to power electric cars.:

That's questionable. I know what it costs to do wind generation at my house to power it (which in turn could be used to power a portion of a plug-in car).  I have a hard time believing setting up an algae farm to power my house would be more cost efficient (not to mention space efficient)....

[Mitlov]

That's questionable. I know what it costs to do wind generation at my house to power it (which in turn could be used to power a portion of a plug-in car).  I have a hard time believing setting up an algae farm to power my house would be more cost efficient (not to mention space efficient)....

I was thinking on a mass-production scale, not an individual-use scale, and my understanding was the large turbines needed for mass-production of wind electricity are extremely expensive.  I agree that having many individual-use biodiesel production facilities would be incredibly inefficient.  But to paraphrase my father's description of the Coors Brewery, I'm thinking about vats the size of Delaware turning tube-grown algae into biodiesel.

I don't have any numbers to compare relative cost, though.

[rrocket]

That's questionable. I know what it costs to do wind generation at my house to power it (which in turn could be used to power a portion of a plug-in car).  I have a hard time believing setting up an algae farm to power my house would be more cost efficient (not to mention space efficient)....

I was thinking on a mass-production scale, not an individual-use scale, and my understanding was the large turbines needed for mass-production of wind electricity are extremely expensive.  I agree that having many individual-use biodiesel production facilities would be incredibly inefficient.  But to paraphrase my father's description of the Coors Brewery, I'm thinking about vats the size of Delaware turning tube-grown algae into biodiesel.



I don't have any numbers to compare relative cost, though.

But given foot-print size...I'd like to see which one produces more "fuel"....

For that, I guess we need to know how many watts/kilowatts it takes to charge a Volt.  9 hours supposedly...But how much does it draw in 9 hours....I have a 10,000 watt sauna heater at home than spins the hydro meter like mad when it's turned on....LOL

[Mitlov]

But given foot-print size...I'd like to see which one produces more "fuel"....

For that, I guess we need to know how many watts/kilowatts it takes to charge a Volt.  9 hours supposedly...But how much does it draw in 9 hours....I have a 10,000 watt sauna heater at home than spins the hydro meter like mad when it's turned on....LOL

I don't know the answer, but I also don't think that's the only question that matters when determining the better overall source of energy.  A lot of electricity is lost between the turbine and the outlet that fuels your car.  A lot more electricity is lost in storage (both at electric dispensing stations and within your car's batteries).  When you make 1000 gallons of biodiesel, on the other hand, nearly 1000 gallons of biodiesel ends being combusted in car engines.

Also, think of road trips, track days, and the like, where you need to refuel your car but don't want to leave it sitting for eight hours.  How do you refuel an electric car in ninety seconds?  You don't.  Biodiesel, on the other hand, can just be poured into the gas tank just like gasoline.

Biodiesel's my favorite, but it's not perfect either.  Even beyond the food supply problems (which wouldn't be a problem if we made biodiesel from algae instead of food crops), biodiesel has problems with gelling in cold temperatures, which would obviously be disastrous during Canadian winters until some sort of combustible antifreeze is developed (for the time being, a blend of traditional diesel serves that purpose nicely).

[rrocket]

^^^ A bit of an apples and oranges argument.  I mean, the person who's buying a Volt (or other EV) isn't thinking about doing track days.  A track day in an of itself is a huge waste of energy (whether green or not) PERIOD.  But for driving to work during the day, then charging at night, I see the appeal of the lectric car.  I'd even buy one strictly for that purpose...but the cost is outrageous.  Maybe an EV retro-fit kit for the Echo when it's nearly dead??

As far as bio fuels...my favorite (and it should be yours too with your turbo!) is E85.  The power increases with cars with turbos is just silly...huge...AWESOME!!  It's better than race fuel for about the cost of regular gas....




(Oh yea...and the bio-fuels being a drain on food crops is a myth.  The bulk of corn and other food crops produced in the USA is for cattle/poultry feed....not human consumption.)

[EV Dan]

Is not the point to reduced your carbon footprint and not mileage

You must ask yourself where does that electricity come from.

Of course I do 

No. It actually comes from a wall socket.

Its been said so much here about alternative energy sources that it is hardly needs repeating. But seeing many members reading the forum on a quarterly basis I will probably start doing copy/paste  of the most meaningful posts and use them as we go over the same thing time and again.
Lets say for now if ppl get a discount rate on hydro for charging strictly off peak there must be enough energy for a foreseeable future to charge EVs, as opposed to that energy being grounded.
Alternative energy sources to list a few: tide power, hydro power, geothermal (think BC), wind power, solar power - solar voltaic and mirror concentrators, and thats only what works and off top of my head.
Alternative EVs (which actually go) Th!nk, Tesla, Miev, Subie, BYD (very promising one in terms of both tech and price)
Alternative ways to move one's behind around: walking, running, jumping, rolling, cycling, e-biking (the latter you really have to try to believe)..
I dont see how looking for ways to make the planet livable is "idioticy"  It appears to me rather silly to burn fossils despite the obvious now drawbacks and go "drill baby drill" when cornered with an energy crisis. 

[EV Dan]

"europe went to diesel a long time ago because it is the easiest next step.   simply by going to clean diesels will almost double our mpg and substantially reduce our co2 output.  gm should be producing the first clean bio diesel engine that gets 80 mpg."

again its been mentioned here somewhere that only about a fifth of a barrel of oil (IIRC) can be used to make diesel. Making NA dependent on diesel will prolly increase the price of diesel fuel and thus make it financially pointless to buy such cars. There has also been a study showing that finer soot particles (from modern diesel filters) are more harmful to human health compared to "straight" diesels.

I hope the congress votes in favour favor of the $7500 bill and other EV makers with already reasonable prices will get to the market sooner. The tech is here, time and price will do the rest.

[rrocket]

^^ I think what some people refer to is HOW the electricity or alternate vehicle makes the power, and where the EV vehicle parts come from and how in the end, they aren't terribly green themselves.  

Electricity?  Turning mountains into moonscapes and then burning that coal.  Not very green.  Batteries?  Some of the stuff they use in the batteries and disposing of them at a later date isn't very green.  Stuff like that...I thik that's what people refer to...so in the end, is it "greener" than plain old gasoline??  It at times seems questionable.

And as far as the $7500 rebate....that won't affect us anyways.  We'll still be paying full price...

[EV Dan]

"No. It actually comes from a wall socket."

Edit: "No. It actually comes from a wall socket." 

[rrocket]

"No. It actually comes from a wall socket."

Edit: "No. It actually comes from a wall socket." 

Is that like "Gas comes from the gas station"??

[EV Dan]

"No. It actually comes from a wall socket."

Edit: "No. It actually comes from a wall socket." 

Is that like "Gas comes from the gas station"??

Yep. From a black rubber hose, or even the nozzle to be exact. 

[CyberNick]

don't forget money from the bank machine and water from the tap.... 

[G35X]

“ … we need to know how many watts/kilowatts it takes to charge a Volt.  9 hours supposedly...But how much does it draw in 9 hours....I have a 10,000 watt sauna heater at home than spins the hydro meter like mad when it's turned on....LOL… “ – rrocket

Judging from what GM said so far the Volt consumes about 8KWH of energy to go 40 miles (64 kms), you have to keep it plugged in for 8 hours (during off-peak hours) drawing slightly more than 1KW to charge that amount of electricity.  The charging time will be 4 hours or shorter if plugged in to a 220V outlet drawing 2KW+.  This power draw is similar to an electric space heater.  Even if 1 million of these cars are charging at the same time, the power requirement is 1GW, which is much, much lower than the surplus during off-peak hours. (I think Ontario Hydro companies have more than 10GW of surplus combined. They will be more than happy to sell the surplus energy at a greatly reduced rate.  You see, the output of power plants especially nuke and coal-fired plants cannot be easily adjusted.  They have to keep generating.  You do not want to have the Chernobyl disaster in Pickering.

The advantage of electric automobiles like the Volt is it uses otherwise wasted energy.  So there is a net reduction in both energy use and CO2 emission.

[rrocket]

Excellent...thanks!!

[Leviathan]

I guess we need to know how many watts/kilowatts it takes to charge a Volt.  9 hours supposedly...But how much does it draw in 9 hours....I have a 10,000 watt sauna heater at home than spins the hydro meter like mad when it's turned on....LOL

Good question.The official GM press release says:

The Chevrolet Volt can be plugged either into a standard household 120v outlet or use 240v for charging. The vehicle's intelligent charging technology enables the Volt's battery to be charged in less than three hours on a 240v outlet or about eight hours on a 120v outlet. Charge times are reduced if the battery has not been fully depleted. At a cost of about 80 cents per day (10 cents per kWh) for a full charge that will deliver up to 40 miles of electric driving, GM estimates that the Volt will be less expensive to recharge than purchasing a cup of your favorite coffee. Charging the Volt about once daily will consume less electric energy annually than the average home's refrigerator and freezer units.

[Leviathan]

That press release also gives this nugget:

The Volt's electric drive unit delivers the equivalent of 150 horsepower, 273 lb-ft. (370 Nm) of instant torque

[Mitlov]

^^^ A bit of an apples and oranges argument.  I mean, the person who's buying a Volt (or other EV) isn't thinking about doing track days.  A track day in an of itself is a huge waste of energy (whether green or not) PERIOD.  But for driving to work during the day, then charging at night, I see the appeal of the lectric car.

But how about road trips?  What happens when the batteries go dead?  Is that it for the day in your electric car, and you park there for eight hours? 

And not just road trips for recreation.  What if you need to travel for your work?  I know I'm not the only one who ever has to do that.

[Leviathan]

But how about road trips?  What happens when the batteries go dead?  Is that it for the day in your electric car, and you park there for eight hours? 

And not just road trips for recreation.  What if you need to travel for your work?  I know I'm not the only one who ever has to do that.

The Volt has a gas powered generator to provide extended range so you can keep putting gas in and keep on driving. The battery doesn't "go dead" but is apparently kept in the 35%-85% state of charge.  A battery-only electric would have that problem though.

[rrocket]

But how about road trips?  What happens when the batteries go dead?  Is that it for the day in your electric car, and you park there for eight hours? 

And not just road trips for recreation.  What if you need to travel for your work?  I know I'm not the only one who ever has to do that.

Is it so hard for you to understand that an EV is not for everyone?  Like any other specialty vehicle it has its applications...and limitations.  Would you say an R8 is garbage because you couldn't take 4 people in it to carpool?  Or that a Maybach sucks because it's terrible for autocross?  No.  Is your SV650 a POS because it stays parked in the winter?  You'd use that vehicle for what it's best suited for.  An EV is no different.  Certainly if you have to travel for work beyond the purely electrical capacity of 40 miles (though as it has been pointed out, you can still use the gas engine) you would not buy an EV.  Duh.  Just because it doesn't suit your application it doesn't mean the idea has no merit.

Read my reply again.  "But for driving to work during the day, then charging at night, I see the appeal of the electric car."  It's simple really.  It would almost even work for me in purely electrical mode...I do 65 kms round trip everyday for work.  Everything I need...grocery, post office, drug store, video store, whatever, I could pass on my way to work if need be.  I'm fairly certain that if I had a Volt and used it just for work (like my Echo), I'd use less than 1 tank of gas per month from April through October..until the very cold weather or snow came.  Cold weather is killer on EVs. There are actually some weird people (believe it or not) who think cars are appliances and just use them to travel a short distance to and from work or to run small errands.  Or those that live close and commute in the city.  That's it.  For them, the car is brilliant and their actual gas usage for the year would be minimal.  Are there many of these people?  NO.  Will this car be for everyone?  NO.  That's why GM intends to build only 10,000 per year....fewer than even Maserati's projected sales for that same year. 

[tpl]

 I wonder.  ".I do 65 kms round trip everyday for work.  Everything I need...grocery, post office, drug store, video store, whatever, I could pass on my way to work if need be."   will the Volt be capable of running the gas engine while the car is turned off?  So that on those stops for a few minutes each the battery could continue recharging. Would seem sensible for it to work that way but I am not a liability lawyer.

Biodiesel and food crops. I have not seen any mention of Biodiesel being made from food crops. Made from oil seeds, waste animal fats and what else I wonder especially when made in quantity.  Biodiesel seems to have been lost in the noise of using real food crops for Ethanol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel