Production Volt

[rrocket]

I dunno....their press release sounds pretty convincing...


"Chrysler will select one electric-drive model to be produced in 2010 for consumers in North American markets, and European markets after 2010. Additionally, approximately 100 Chrysler electric vehicles will be on the road in government, business, utility and Chrysler development fleets in 2009.

The Company said that it is well into the development of advanced, production-intent electric vehicles, and that it will apply electric-drive technology to its front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and body-on-frame four-wheel-drive platforms in the next several years.


And the GM Volt is the exact same as the Chrysler units...those are production-intent vehicles. (they can't be anything else since there are no consumer Volts yet)

[rrocket]

^^Hell yea!!  I always liked the guy despite his cuckoo posts.  Was always nice to chat him up at the track too...

I liked his posts in general ( no pun intended)  and I cared not about his rants... this is the internet... you're allowed to rant.

....and to be cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs!

[drederick]

Can you show us where the link to the pricing is? I couldn't find it? Can't find any pictures of production vehciles, option packages, exterior interior colors.

I find it really strange that Cev would not provide such important info on its Volt site..oh wait its not Chev's volt site its essentially a facebook site for Volt and Ev Lovers.

I asked this of artic honda owner, but maybe you can answer this one because if you answer this, then maybe you can answer your own questions:

what is best practice in the Auto industry for releasing this information?

Nope you don't get to sidestep the question sorry.

You presented the link as some type of "proof" that the Volt "exisits". A third party website with videos of a test mule doesn't consitute proof.

That same kind of "proof" was shown by Chrysler before they klilled the entire program.

Just admit it. the Volt does not "exisit" at this time. it could exist. Maybe its very likley to exist. But it does not exist today. As of TODAY GM doesn't have a product you can buy. Its not for sale in another market.

I'm going to be producing a 1000hp eletric vehcile in my backyar to be launched in 2020. Until I announce its NOT going to be produced I guess we can all assume that it exisits?

Sidestep the question? is it really a question? GM never said it was going to release the pricing or specific production start date yet, so, what does that really matter?

I'd love to hear why GM needs to release that info so far away from their own target of 'launching 2010' as a 2011 model. What, again, is the industry best practice for releasing that specific information?

Lets see - did you goto the link you called 'A third party website with videos of a test mule doesn't consitute proof.'?

It is a GM site, not a third party site, thanks.

Maybe I didn't understand what you meant by 'exist' LOL

Lets see - goto the site and look at the video posted by GM of the Volt right on the openning page of the site....... is that a computer rendering of the Volt or is it a Volt?

To me, that is pretty darn good proof that the Volt EXISTS.

I guess you actually mean that until the Volt has a price and specific production date then it does not exist. I'm not sure about you, but I've been to PLENTY of new car shows and read PLENTY of car reviews that say that information is to be provided at a later date........... so I guess those cars that I touched at the car show - from plenty of manufacturers...... they didn't exist? I touched something that doesn't exist? should I see a doctor???

[rrocket]

To me, that is pretty darn good proof that the Volt EXISTS.

 

Hmmm...I guess by those same standards, the Chrysler products (which will never be built) exist too.  If there's video it must be a production car, right?

[drederick]

I dunno....their press release sounds pretty convincing...


"Chrysler will select one electric-drive model to be produced in 2010 for consumers in North American markets, and European markets after 2010. Additionally, approximately 100 Chrysler electric vehicles will be on the road in government, business, utility and Chrysler development fleets in 2009.

The Company said that it is well into the development of advanced, production-intent electric vehicles, and that it will apply electric-drive technology to its front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and body-on-frame four-wheel-drive platforms in the next several years.


And the GM Volt is the exact same as the Chrysler units...those are production-intent vehicles. (they can't be anything else since there are no consumer Volts yet)

I still read that Chrysler wasn't fully into producing any of the 'concepts' but, at the end of the day, who cares:

Volt still targeted for production: Check

Until that changes..... you'll see the Volt on the road sometime next year.

(P.S. do a little digging into the decision to stop the ENVI program - GM has a VERY different view of electric cars and where the market is going)

[drederick]

To me, that is pretty darn good proof that the Volt EXISTS.

 

Hmmm...I guess by those same standards, the Chrysler products (which will never be built) exist too.  If there's video it must be a production car, right?

and I quote:
GM's Board of Directors approved the production of the Chevrolet Volt. The targeted launch date is late 2010 as a 2011 model.

That Volt you see is a pre-production version the Volt that was approved to go into production, thus it is proof it does exist.

Which of the three 'concept' Chryslers is in the video? was it the 'one' they planned to be 'production-intent'? see the difference?

P.S. yes they do exist - as concepts!

[rrocket]

I dunno....their press release sounds pretty convincing...


"Chrysler will select one electric-drive model to be produced in 2010 for consumers in North American markets, and European markets after 2010. Additionally, approximately 100 Chrysler electric vehicles will be on the road in government, business, utility and Chrysler development fleets in 2009.

The Company said that it is well into the development of advanced, production-intent electric vehicles, and that it will apply electric-drive technology to its front-wheel-drive, rear-wheel-drive and body-on-frame four-wheel-drive platforms in the next several years.


And the GM Volt is the exact same as the Chrysler units...those are production-intent vehicles. (they can't be anything else since there are no consumer Volts yet)

I still read that Chrysler wasn't fully into producing any of the 'concepts' but, at the end of the day, who cares:

Volt still targeted for production: Check

Until that changes..... you'll see the Volt on the road sometime next year.

(P.S. do a little digging into the decision to stop the ENVI program - GM has a VERY different view of electric cars and where the market is going)

I've read it all.  Remember, I work in the industry and as such read pretty much everything I can.  I agree it appears as though it will be produced.  However, with the launch being so far off, it's not inconceivable that some issue could crop up in testing that would delay, or possibly scuttle the car.  It happens.  We're still "on hold" for some tooling we've partially completed for a car that's to be produced because of some issues on their end.  It  happens all the time.

[articsteve]

PayPal founder Elon Musk is the CEO of Tesla Motors.  Recently he unveiled the Model S 4 door all-electric sedan shown above to much fanfare.  The car exists only as a prototype but the company hopes to mass produce it if it can obtain a $350 million dollar government loan to build the assembly plant.

Tesla has already been producing the 2-seat electric Roadster and has plans to eventually build inexpensive electric cars and partner with automakers.  GM vice chairman Bob Lutz has even credited the company with inspiring him to develop the Volt.

But one thing that stands out is Tesla has no plans to build an extended range electric car like the Volt.

I had the chance to ask Elon Musk why.

What is your feelings about the range-extender concept of the Chevy Volt and why have you not considered it it any of your products?

We looked closely at a range extender architecture for Model S. It ends up costing about the same in vehicle unit cost, a lot more in R&D and a lot more in servicing. Also, although performance is ok when both battery and engine are active at the same time, it turns really bad when the battery runs out and an undersized engine is carrying all the dead weight of the pack. Essentially, a REV is neither fish nor fowl and ends up being worse (in our opinion) than either a gasoline or pure electric vehicle.

An important consideration that people without a technical background don’t understand is that you can either have a high power or a high energy cell chemistry, but not both. Since the battery pack in a plug in hybrid like the Volt has to generate the same *power* as a much larger battery pack in a pure electric vehicle, it has to use a low energy cell chemistry.

That means a 40 mile REV pack is not 1/5 the size of a 200 mile pure EV pack, as simple proportionality would suggest. Another factor is that the REV pack is forced to do three to four times more cycles that a pure EV pack and is (obviously) hit with five times the current per cell during acceleration and regen braking, which forces the REV pack to be derated considerably.

The net result is that a 40 mile REV pack is roughly half the size of a 200 mile EV pack. On top of that, you have to add the engine, generator and all the interconnects between engine and battery. It ends up having about the same mass and worse packing efficiency than a pure EV, plus you still have to deal with all the environmental issues of a gasoline engine.

[rrocket]

To me, that is pretty darn good proof that the Volt EXISTS.

 

Hmmm...I guess by those same standards, the Chrysler products (which will never be built) exist too.  If there's video it must be a production car, right?

and I quote:
GM's Board of Directors approved the production of the Chevrolet Volt. The targeted launch date is late 2010 as a 2011 model.

That Volt you see is a pre-production version the Volt that was approved to go into production, thus it is proof it does exist.

Which of the three 'concept' Chryslers is in the video? was it the 'one' they planned to be 'production-intent'? see the difference?

P.S. yes they do exist - as concepts!

Hmmm...maybe you're confusing the terms.  In the industry, these are the terms we use.

Concept =  Essentially that.  A dream.  A sculpture.

Pre-Production and Production Intent are essentially the same.  Also used to be called a "prototype" or a "mule".  These are actual cars that are built for testing, advertising, etc.  They build them to see if they can actually be built.  Usually we find out some of the crazy bodywork or details (from the concept) just can't be produced or produced cost effectively, and therefore an "engineering change" is done.  When we build the tooling for these, all of the hard tooling is made with aluminum.  We use aluminum because we can machine and finish it very rapidly.  The downside of aluminum is the tooling wears faster (it's softer), and therefore can flash in as little as 50 pieces.  But that doesn't matter, since usually there aren't that many test mules anyways.  On our end, there is no difference between Production Intent and Pre-Production tooling.  So perhaps that is why you and I are going back and forth on those words.  To me, in manufacturing, they are essentially the same.  I would say, maybe, that a Pre-Production unit might be a bit more polished as a whole though.  Though I have seen some pretty rough pre-production stuff, and some production intent stuff that was nicer than pre-production stuff.  Make sense to you?  LOL

We switch to the highest, hardest and longest wearing metal possible (as per customer) for the actual production units.    

[Leviathan]

The Volt is beyond mule stage and into Integration Vehicle status using production intent parts (sans graining on interior) at the moment. Those were the 80 some odd built this summer and being tested on roads now. Hell, there will be a couple at the winter olympics. It is a long way from being vaporware.

You guys and your pedantic "where can I order one now"  No you can't order one now and the final pricing has not been announced. Retail delivery is still a year (or so) away and GM has repeatedly said that they would finalize pricing closer to launch but yet that is extolled as if it were a coup de grace. STFU 

Will the Volt be built? I figure yes (no surprise)
100% yes? I wouldn't bet my life on it 
Is GM still on shaky ground? Yes. However, the reversal on selling Opel had GM stating better economics as one reason and there was a recent report that GM may be planning to pay back some TARP $$$ so things seem to be looking up. Apparently GM will be releasing financials on Monday even though they're not a public company so y'all will get some answers then.

In the mean time, I don't give a rat's ass about that stuff. I am interested in the Volt and its progress to production

[rrocket]

^^heheheh.....What would we have to say for you to have a complete meltdown??   

[Leviathan]

^^heheheh.....What would we have to say for you to have a complete meltdown??   

Booger? 

[Leviathan]

You presented the link as some type of "proof" that the Volt "exisits". A third party website with videos of a test mule doesn't consitute proof.

http://www.chevroletvoltage.com/ is a GM site.

[toolatecrew]

Is the volt in production NO
Did GM say it WILL be in prioduction YES

Are chryslers EVs in production NO
Did Chrysler say they would be in production :Yes

intends to put on North American roads in late 2010

All three models are roughly at the same point in development, Chrysler says, so any one of them could be the first to go on sale in 2010

It goes on.

In fact, Chrysler has probably been ahead of GM on the Volt-type powertrain development and R&D, which obviously began during the DaimlerChrysler years. The extended-range Jeep and Chrysler will use a small gasoline engine and an integrated electric generator to charge the system when needed, like the 2011 Chevy Volt that GM promises for November 2010. Batteries are lithium-ion, and while Chrysler didn't team up with GM on the project, it's likely the two have been shopping the same Li-Ion battery suppliers.

If you can't see the parelles I don't know what else to say.

This is not to say that becuase Chrsley did not deliver a product that Chev won't. That is not the point.

The point is that until testing is finished and the assembly line is ready to crank out saleable cars that 'intent" is not a product. The Volt COULD be launched as planned in Nov 2011. No is saying it CAN"T happen.

I think not ackknowledging that what happend with chrysler COULD happen with Cev is just unrelistic.

[drederick]

Volt news:

http://gm-volt.com/2009/11/12/chief-powertrain-engineer-pleased-with-chevy-volts-charge-sustaining-mode/

Chief Powertrain Engineer Pleased With Chevy Volt’s Charge-Sustaining Mode
Posted by: Lyle

I had the following discussion with Alex Cattelan who is the Chevy Volt’s chief powertrain engineer. She has a very deep understanding of how the car operates and recently drove in a fleet of integration Volt prototypes through rugged mountains of Knoxville Tennessee.

Do you feel the charge-sustaining (CS mode) experience is now pretty solid and are you pleased with it?
We are definitely pleased with the level of progression we’re at. We are right on track to where we need to be in terms of the next stages of development we need to do to meet our target. Is it commercial right now, no, but that’s why were taking the time to get it to be commercial. Does it have the capability of being commercial, absolutely. We’ve proven that to ourselves.

We just took our leadership through a test drive in Warren (Michigan) and comments are that they cant tell when the engine is coming on or off. Those are the kind of things we like to hear.

You drove the IVs around the mountains of Tennessee. What about those big hills and the generator. It sounded like it drove very briskly powerfully and effortless is that true?
Yes, absolutely. Some of our control capability to utilize the battery, the engine, and the motors and to be able to optimize for high load and low load situations we’ve been working on developing that stuff for the last year and half an I couldn’t tell you how happy I was when I was in Knoxville because that’s when I had the opportunity to see it all come together. A lot of those bits of software all came together on one trip and it was a joy to drive.

So you took it up some steep hills and mountains?
Absolutely. We were in the Cherokee area taking it up through those hills and a lot of situations following it. It was a very touristy area. Following the speed of traffic, absolutely no problem, and where I had opportunities I certainly like to push the limits of the vehicle, and we did on those mountains, and I could not get it to degrade in performance.

That’s in charge sustaining mode?
Certainly in charge depleting, we have no issues because we have battery power, I’ve got it all at my fingertips. Now in charge sustaining we know that the engine power is slightly less than the peak vehicle power but we have controls ways to manage that and to utilize the engine in conjunction with the battery to get a little bit of extra power when we need it, and replenish it back when we don’t.

I know the battery runs down to roughly the 30% level before for the engine comes on. Is that 30% itself the whole potential buffer band?
We certainly don’t utilize the full 30% but there’s a portion of that that we utilize as a buffer.

You wouldn’t go to zero ever?
No. When the engine cannot meet peak load requirements we’ll suck a little bit out of that buffer and as soon as we have a situation when we can, we’ll put it right back in. All the controls that we work do that to optimize not only the driveability but the efficiency as we’re doing it, NVH (noise vibration harshness) as we’re doing it, the total driving experience as well as to protect the battery from a life experience. This is what allows us to give really good warranty life on our batteries as we’re doing I all in a controlled fashion.

[drederick]

Hmmm...maybe you're confusing the terms.  In the industry, these are the terms we use.

Concept =  Essentially that.  A dream.  A sculpture.

Pre-Production and Production Intent are essentially the same.  Also used to be called a "prototype" or a "mule".  These are actual cars that are built for testing, advertising, etc.  They build them to see if they can actually be built.  Usually we find out some of the crazy bodywork or details (from the concept) just can't be produced or produced cost effectively, and therefore an "engineering change" is done.  When we build the tooling for these, all of the hard tooling is made with aluminum.  We use aluminum because we can machine and finish it very rapidly.  The downside of aluminum is the tooling wears faster (it's softer), and therefore can flash in as little as 50 pieces.  But that doesn't matter, since usually there aren't that many test mules anyways.  On our end, there is no difference between Production Intent and Pre-Production tooling.  So perhaps that is why you and I are going back and forth on those words.  To me, in manufacturing, they are essentially the same.  I would say, maybe, that a Pre-Production unit might be a bit more polished as a whole though.  Though I have seen some pretty rough pre-production stuff, and some production intent stuff that was nicer than pre-production stuff.  Make sense to you?  LOL

We switch to the highest, hardest and longest wearing metal possible (as per customer) for the actual production units.    

Didn't you answer your own questions with the above information? Chrysler themselves called the three vehicles it showed 'concepts'. They are what they 'dream' of making, not what they were going to make. In the end they decided to kill the project, did they even bother to tell the Mopar fans which of the three they had selected to build and then kill? I have yet to see that info. So, regardless of engineering and work on the 'project', they remained 'concepts'.

'production-intent' doesn't sound as 100 percent as 'production' and of course GMs board approved it for production....... but whatever.

GM approved the Volt for production and has shown the Volt in pre-production trim. As you describe above it sounds like it EXIST.

[toolatecrew]

Hmmm...maybe you're confusing the terms.  In the industry, these are the terms we use.

Concept =  Essentially that.  A dream.  A sculpture.

Pre-Production and Production Intent are essentially the same.  Also used to be called a "prototype" or a "mule".  These are actual cars that are built for testing, advertising, etc.  They build them to see if they can actually be built.  Usually we find out some of the crazy bodywork or details (from the concept) just can't be produced or produced cost effectively, and therefore an "engineering change" is done.  When we build the tooling for these, all of the hard tooling is made with aluminum.  We use aluminum because we can machine and finish it very rapidly.  The downside of aluminum is the tooling wears faster (it's softer), and therefore can flash in as little as 50 pieces.  But that doesn't matter, since usually there aren't that many test mules anyways.  On our end, there is no difference between Production Intent and Pre-Production tooling.  So perhaps that is why you and I are going back and forth on those words.  To me, in manufacturing, they are essentially the same.  I would say, maybe, that a Pre-Production unit might be a bit more polished as a whole though.  Though I have seen some pretty rough pre-production stuff, and some production intent stuff that was nicer than pre-production stuff.  Make sense to you?  LOL

We switch to the highest, hardest and longest wearing metal possible (as per customer) for the actual production units.    

Didn't you answer your own questions with the above information? Chrysler themselves called the three vehicles it showed 'concepts'. They are what they 'dream' of making, not what they were going to make. In the end they decided to kill the project, did they even bother to tell the Mopar fans which of the three they had selected to build and then kill? I have yet to see that info. So, regardless of engineering and work on the 'project', they remained 'concepts'.

'production-intent' doesn't sound as 100 percent as 'production' and of course GMs board approved it for production....... but whatever.

GM approved the Volt for production and has shown the Volt in pre-production trim. As you describe above it sounds like it EXIST.

Do you feel the charge-sustaining (CS mode) experience is now pretty solid and are you pleased with it?
We are definitely pleased with the level of progression we’re at. We are right on track to where we need to be in terms of the next stages of development we need to do to meet our target. Is it commercial right now, no,

There you go. Chev's OWN powertrain engineer says that as it stands TODAY its not commercial. Its not ready. You could not sell it tomorrow beucase its not ready. XCOULD it be ? Yes but it isn't .How many preproduction cars have powetrains that are npot COMMERICALLY viable?

This isn't some optional spoiler or 23 inch wheels that may or not show up on the production version. Its the powertrain!

They are still working to get this to production ready level. Which means there is a chance they won't.

[Leviathan]

If you can't see the parelles I don't know what else to say.

Oh, I see them but just don't care. Chrysler is a completely different company with their own problems

I think not ackknowledging that what happend with chrysler COULD happen with Cev is just unrelistic.

Of course it could happen. The real mystery is why people here are wanting that so badly. 

[toolatecrew]

If you can't see the parelles I don't know what else to say.

Oh, I see them but just don't care. Chrysler is a completely different company with their own problems

I think not ackknowledging that what happend with chrysler COULD happen with Cev is just unrelistic.

Of course it could happen. The real mystery is why people here are wanting that so badly. 

Who says we want it?

The opposite side must also be true right? Wanting it to happen badley doesn't make it so does it?

That's the real argument here. You are saying its written in stone..it will happen. Why? Becuase you want very badley to belive it will.

I'm saying it might happen, its even likley to happen but it might not. Big difference.

Chevs own engineers say "its not ready. We are working to get it ready. We think it will be ready. But it IS NOT READY. Maybe it will be maybe it won't. What we know for certain and that its not now. We know for a fact that Chev has failed before. We know for a fact that ccompany that was supposedly ahead of Chevy in the same development failed.  None of those things support certainty. they support doubt.

Its like the boy who crys wolf. If he crys wolf over and over do we still assume that there IS a wolf until he says there is not? No based on past and present eveidence we take a skeptical view and assume there is NOT one until he proves there is.

I'm assuming that Chev wil as they have in the past fail to meet the deadline, production speces etc etc. until they prove that they can succeed.

[Leviathan]

You are saying its written in stone..i

man, I didn't say it is written in stone - are you dense?

Yes, I'd like this car to make it to production. Badly? No, I don't live and breathe Volt, Chevy or GM. For the record, I would like GM to do half-assed decent so taxpayers can stand a chance of recovering some bailout dough.

But it IS NOT READY.

Duh. You put a lot of energy into what is a really pointless argument but you do that in more threads than just this one dontchya?

Its like the boy who crys wolf.

And you just went fully ridiculous 

I'm assuming that Chev wil as they have in the past fail to meet the deadline, production speces etc etc. until they prove that they can succeed.

How nice for you.