Freight and PDI charges in Canada

[PJungnitsch]

What is the torque rating in the tractor?

363 lb/ft, 110 PTO hp, 4WD, Powershift

Does it have AC?

Oh yeah

[xviper]

I think the whole salesman/sales manager setup evolved in the consumer vehicle market as an effective way to squeeze those extra fees out of people. And the trouble is they sell stuff every day, they gets lots of practice at this.

No sh!t !!  Anyone else ever get that "good cop - bad cop" routine when buying a car?  Those guys aren't just salesmen, they're ACTORS, too.

"I'm gonna put this really low offer to the sales manager.  He's gonna have a fit, but I'm going to impress upon him that you are a serious buyer and ready to sign if he'll approve the deal.  Give me 10 minutes (to go for coffee) and I'll be back to let you know how it went."

"Oh gosh, he just can't let me sell this thing for such a low figure.  It's below our cost.  Can you maybe come up a little bit on your offer?

How about this one:
"Sure, go shop around for the lowest price.  Come back and we'll beat it."
Then, when you do find a lower price, you go back and ...............................
"Oooh, that IS a good price.  You should buy it there."
What you've just done is all the footwork to do the first dealership's research FOR THEM!  Without lifting a finger, they've just got you to provide them with information about their competitor's sales practices.  Now they can use this information on the next bunch of buyers.  It's well worth it to not make that one sale.

Folks, this has been said in the news, in magazines and in my "cocktail" discussion with my car business friends ..................... YOUR CAR SALESMAN IS NOT YOUR FRIEND!  He's there to make as money as possible for himself and his dealership.  YOU are the target and in some cases, the PATSY!  In no other business is the phrase "BUYER BEWARE", more applicable.  A car purchase is generally the second biggest buy anyone makes (only topped by a house).  Don't be fooled into thinking that car dealers make very little money on a new car deal.  They may make a bit less than they did years ago, but they still make plenty.  You actually think they can build those fancy new dealerships and make the owners some of the wealthiest members of society because they only make a couple hundred bucks a car?

Typical that we see here, that a car salesman would attempt to make the car buyer the "bad guy".  Good luck, pal.  Not gonna happen.  We know it.  YOU know it.  The whole bloody world knows it.  Nice try.

[goodsonr]

I'm somewhere in the middle between on this one.  If you have your price that you are willing to pay, then like Cord says .. how can they slip something in.  But as was pointed out .. some still try.

My last car purchase was pretty painless and I attribute that to it being done mostly in e-mail so the "wasting time with business manager" was (mostly) sidestepped.  I made an e-mail offer on a car, and they came back with

"The offer that you had given me yesterday was a little lower than I was hoping for after all things considered, however I understand where you are coming from obviously you have done your research and know the product very well. My counter offer to you would be $22,950.00 including all taxes, fees .."

I accepted the price not caring a whit if the car was $10.00 with a $22,940 admin fee or vice-versa.  All I cared about was that we agreed on a price.  Yet, they still pushed hard for etching,security,rust etc.  I guess my attitude was/is somewhat blase .. as in .. can't blame you for trying but unless the total I'm paying is <=$22,950 I aint buying. 

ron

[Baron von Raschke]

This might just be a subjective observation, but I get this awful feeling after I buy a car that I did not get the best deal that I could have had.  This is why I dread the car buying experience....its seems like a long song and dance and in the end you feel that someone else probably got a better deal there because they could play the game better.  I've been told countless times never to pay MSRP, but how much below can one force the dealer to go?  The salesman will  tell you that there is no play and, if there is, its made up somewhere else in fees or in the trade-in.

I just wish buying a car was a staightforwad transaction void of the "shell games", high pressure sales and misc fees that pop up at the end.

[Baron von Raschke]

I remember the old Saturn commercials where the dealer is shown as a place where you pay a set price and don't have to worry about any shennanigans.

Can anyone who has bought a car at Saturn confrim that this is true?

[Cord]

I remember the old Saturn commercials where the dealer is shown as a place where you pay a set price and don't have to worry about any shennanigans.

The problem is that for every person that wants it that way, there is another person that wants the ability to negotiate and pay less than everyone else.

Toyota set up a system in most of Canada where they were selling at prices fixed at MSRP or just slightly below. There was a huge outcry from consumers that it was preventing competition and that dealers and customers should be free to negotiate prices. Toyota has since backed away from that initiative.

I believe that Saturn has faded away from the no-haggle model they used before, mainly because you never hear them mention it anymore. Of course, the no haggle business went out the window when a trade was involved and certainly couldn't work with selling used cars.

[safristi]

..aren't shenanigans a part of PDI... .....   Oi always refuse them 'cos I oilways...Oh never mind.....

[kevlar]

pdi and frieght is standard bs now.  even admin is becoming standard.  to me, that just means i should negotiate more off the price since the owner of the dealer is not paying his salesperson or secretary, or all of his mechanics, or delivery of my car, I AM.       so he only needs maybe 100 bucks over invoice now right?

[Baron von Raschke]

I remember the old Saturn commercials where the dealer is shown as a place where you pay a set price and don't have to worry about any shennanigans.

The problem is that for every person that wants it that way, there is another person that wants the ability to negotiate and pay less than everyone else.

Toyota set up a system in most of Canada where they were selling at prices fixed at MSRP or just slightly below. There was a huge outcry from consumers that it was preventing competition and that dealers and customers should be free to negotiate prices. Toyota has since backed away from that initiative.
I believe that Saturn has faded away from the no-haggle model they used before, mainly because you never hear them mention it anymore. Of course, the no haggle business went out the window when a trade was involved and certainly couldn't work with selling used cars.

If you were a new car salesman, which would you prefer?  Would you enjoy the haggling, or would you rather ditch the adversarial approach?

[xviper]

If you were a new car salesman, which would you prefer?  Would you enjoy the haggling, or would you rather ditch the adversarial approach?

New car, used car.  It doesn't matter.  For many seasoned salesmen, it a bit of an ego trip.  Every time they flog a car, they puff up their chests just a bit more.  At the end of the day, they go home to Lovey, "You shoulda seen the ones I reeled in today.  You can buy more steaks and jewelry this weekend."  Then, at the end of the month, when they get their little name up on the manager's performance board, all the other sales staff look with envy.  Out puffs the chest once more.  Adversarial?  They LOVE it.  It's a sense of accomplishment.
My car dealer friend is always bragging about that $8K profit he made on that last deal.  Or the disappointment in his voice when all he made was a measely $4K.  It's like he's competing with himself.

[swishguy]

I bought 4 new saturn vues. they will still try to nail you with the doc fee but I refused to pay it. The sales invoice still showed it but they upped my trade in value to cover it. They try for doc fee ; tire tax & will try to get you for the $100 a/c fee twice. Just be carefull

[xviper]

will try to get you for the $100 a/c fee twice. Just be carefull

How?  When?  Sounds like a slimy tactic.  (Oh wait, we're talking car dealerships here.  I shouldn't be surprised.)  The business manager of a local car dealership I know, used to tell me all the things he was compelled to "hard sell" to the customer.  This was AFTER the deal was signed and this was just before the car was to be driven home.  Surprising how many people see their brand new, shiny addition to the family so close, they just take it up the hoop and pay it all just so they can get it over with and take their new baby home.  This guy did so well at his job, they made him a new car sales manager.  Went from "slick" to "greasy".

[Cord]

If you were a new car salesman, which would you prefer?  Would you enjoy the haggling, or would you rather ditch the adversarial approach?

When dealing with a good salesperson, negotiating price is not adversarial. A good salesman can truly guide the process to a win-win resolution. And I don't mean that the customer just gets hypnotized for an hour and then later realizes, "hey,I got ripped off!" The stories are on here all the time. Lots of regular posters have described positive buying experiences and none of them have claimed that they got the lowest price in all of Canada. It is the rule and not the exception that the salespeople with the highest Customer Satisfaction Rating and the most repeat business are always the salespeople with the highest average gross. Unfortunately, there are still a lot of poorly trained salespeople out there and there is still plenty of customer fear out there. So in a nutshell, I'd say the highest quality salespeople would prefer negotiation and the poorest quality salespeople would prefer no-haggle.

[xviper]

A good salesman can truly guide the process to a win-win resolution.

"Guide"?  Is that what you call it these days!!  Why does it have to be a "process"?  Why does it have to be "guided"?  Why can't you just cut the B.S. and just make the best offer you can?  Then the customer takes it or leaves it and he doesn't have to find out from his neighbour that he got rammed up the black hole of despair on the same car from another dealer or another salesman?
"Guided" ................... Yeah, right!  Good one!  Don't ya just love invented terminology?

[airbalancer]

A good salesman can truly guide the process to a win-win resolution.

"Guide"?  Is that what you call it these days!!  Why does it have to be a "process"?  Why does it have to be "guided"?  Why can't you just cut the B.S. and just make the best offer you can?  Then the customer takes it or leaves it and he doesn't have to find out from his neighbour that he got rammed up the black hole of despair on the same car from another dealer or another salesman?
"Guided" ................... Yeah, right!  Good one!  Don't ya just love invented terminology?

What is up your A$$
Cord is giving his opinion, it is the way he does business
By the way what do you or did for a living so we can butcher your job

[xviper]

What is up your A$$
Cord is giving his opinion, it is the way he does business
By the way what do you or did for a living so we can butcher your job

Oooh, I guess we know you love car salesmen.  Goodie for you.  When I first came here, I held back so as to not offend Cord.  I knew he was a car salesman but I thought I'd give him the benefit of the doubt, at least till this thread came along.  Now he's shown his real "colors".  Now, I shoot from the hip, so I can freely tell you .............. I know a lot of people in the car business and if you've been reading along and paying attention, many of them are actually my friends, but as car people, I DESPISE them.  I absolutely, categorically, and unabashedly LOATHE them.  No wonder they survey out to be one of the top most hated professions in the modern free world.  OK, THAT's what's up my A$$!
BTW, everything I've posted so far in this thread, has been MY opinion.  Am I NOT allowed to express my opinion?  Or is that only reserved for people like Cord and people like you?  I didn't realize I needed over 7000 posts before I could have an opinion.  Does having 7600 posts make you "special"?

What did I do for a living?  I was a medical scientist conducting research into neurohypophysial hormones as a means of controlling high blood pressure.  I did that for 20 years.  When my boss retired, I became a firefighter for my city.  I've been doing that for the past 17 years.  I will be retired in 2 more years.  Maybe then, I'll go sell cars for a living.  Heck, I've spent the past 37 years HELPING humanity.  Perhaps it's time to go screw them over for a fast buck.
Go ahead, big boy, BUTCHER away!

PS.  What's up YOUR A$$?   

[johngenx]

I'm no fan of the job, either, but there is something I'd add...

It's not the people.  The system has been designed by dealer owners and managers.  They create a hostile environment.  They try to weasel out of paying even minimum wage.  They encourage lying. Car salespeople are just trying to earn a living the same as anyone else, and I'm sure many, if not most, would prefer that cars were sold as most expensive goods are: professionally.

[xviper]

I'm no fan of the job, either, but there is something I'd add...

It's not the people.  The system has been designed by dealer owners and managers.  They create a hostile environment.  They try to weasel out of paying even minimum wage.  They encourage lying. Car salespeople are just trying to earn a living the same as anyone else, and I'm sure many, if not most, would prefer that cars were sold as most expensive goods are: professionally.

John, you make an extremely good and valid point.  I will agree that car salesmen have the right to make a living and as long as it's legal, they can do it in whatever way they want and the "Buyer Beware" rule applies.  I don't have a problem with that.  More specifically, in this thread, here's "what's up my A$$".
I know that there are other car salesmen on this forum.  They go about their business and they haven't come on here in an attempt to justify or defend their profession with lies, inaccuracies and deceit.  They have kept quiet and post on this site with their car salesmen "hats" off.  Their business is what it is and they seem to be OK with that.  In doing so, I'm OK with it, too.  Do what you do for a living.  Congratulations if you're really good at it, but don't sugar coat what you do and take offense at how the public sees you.  Take your commission home and be happy.  We still have our right to be unhappy about some of the ways you do things.  Lawyers and insurance salesmen also deserve to make a living, but should we, as consumers, be forbidden to have negative opinions of them?  They are what they are and they do what they do.  If they don't like the public perception of their trade, then stop doing stuff that give the perception.  If not, then live with it.  If someone tosses a grenade your way, DUCK!  Don't act all surprised and hurt.
But then, one particular car salesman posts "with hat on", blatant lies (I can copy/paste if you like) and half truths, PLUS, making like it's the car buying public that are the "bad guys".  But we all know what "The survey says...."  I'm not raining on the parade of Cord, the person; only Cord, the car salesman who posts up stuff that has been proven to be false (again, I can copy/paste, if anyone wants).

Then Airbalancer steps in and tells me to state what I do for a living so he can in my corn flakes?  Is this an example of the seasoned forum poster putting the new guy in his place?  Put up or shut up?  OK, I put up.  Next!  Please, tell me how evil I was for dispatching all those rats or how incompetent I was when I let that house burn to the ground or how I couldn't save that poor girl when the wheels of that semi trailer crushed her head.  I can take it.  I promise to try harder next time.

[johngenx]

What did I do for a living?  I was a medical scientist conducting research into neurohypophysial hormones as a means of controlling high blood pressure.  I did that for 20 years.  When my boss retired, I became a firefighter for my city.  I've been doing that for the past 17 years.

I work out with a group of firefighters at my gym (fittest Mofo's in the world except, of course, for climbers...     ) and I'll say your avatar had me completely fooled.  Never seen a firefighter that looked like that...   

[xviper]

I work out with a group of firefighters at my gym (fittest Mofo's in the world except, of course, for climbers...     ) and I'll say your avatar had me completely fooled.  Never seen a firefighter that looked like that...   

My avi came from an email joke I got many years ago.  My wife saw it and said it had the same goofy, shat-faced grin I make when I'm mugging for a picture.  I've used it ever since.  Yeah, it gives viewers the impression I'm a young kid, but I'm near retirement.  I've seen stuff and have done stuff that makes me very outspoken and makes me intolerent when I see behavior that indicates ignorance or that might be designed to fool or take advantage of others.
If you ever get a chance to get to know some of those F/Fs, I think you will quickly see that most of them have a pretty jaded view of human society.  The internet brings them all together in one place.