Freight and PDI charges in Canada

[Cord]

2. Are charging extra to simply deliver a fully assembly and operational product as expected.

Where do you get this "charging extra" business? Check a few web sites. The manufacturers list "freight and PDI" as part of the total MSRP.

[kevlar]

2. Are charging extra to simply deliver a fully assembly and operational product as expected.

Where do you get this "charging extra" business? Check a few web sites. The manufacturers list "freight and PDI" as part of the total MSRP.

actually cord, for the longest time dealers manipulated the pdi and freight charges.  i clearly remember wondering why the hell one honda dealer charged 700 for pdi and freight and another charging 1100. they were padding their margin.   now,  the pdi and freight of most of the manufacturers are set and the "admin" charge has become the variable.   it's the old shell game.   i noticed many of the higher end makers don't put pdi and freight on their sites.  hummmm.  why don't they just give us a total mrsp and work a deal from there? 

[Cord]

i clearly remember wondering why the hell one honda dealer charged 700 for pdi and freight and another charging 1100. they were padding their margin.

And yet people kept buying Honda's. Where exactly was the incentive to stop doing that? The dealer added PDI charge was exclusively the domain of import car dealers who were simply riding the wave of their products popularity. Domestic dealers by and large never played that game and now that competition has become more fierce, the import dealers can't do it anymore either.

why don't they just give us a total mrsp and work a deal from there?

Because Canada has just followed the U.S.'s lead where it is required by law to break down the components that make up the MSRP on the vehicle window sticker.

[xviper]

Hey..I had a Stealth TT!!  What year was yours?  I had a 1994.

Mine was a 1993.  Imagine how shocked I was after getting home and giving the car the once over myself, to find I had to go get 2 bottles of tranny fluid to top it off.  I lost faith in car dealerships long before this.  I have many friends in the car business.  Salesmen, sales managers, dealership OWNERS, service people, parts people, body shop people.  The things they tell me over a few cocktails would make the average car buyer go out and buy guns --- lots of guns.  This doesn't mean they still aren't my "friends".  It's when they put on their car business hats, that I wouldn't trust them any further than I could throw them.  My "best" childhood buddy is now a private car dealer.  Believe it or not, he sold a used car to another friend of mine (by my request) with NO FLOOR BOARD under the driver's feet.  It was hidden by a thick floor mat.  As a friend, he'd do anything for me, but as a car salesman, he'd screw my dog.

Hence why a lot of us would love to know what a "typical" dealership PDI entails and who typically is involved in it. Perhaps it is junior level employees that do the cleaning and maybe it is more senior level techs who check some engine codes etc.

How do we know what is entailed if noone in the dealership community will tell us? Small wonder there is so much rampant speculation on this thread.

You're dreaming.  Why would anybody in that line of work actually confess to the buying public what it REALLY entails?  We would all have confirmation of what little they do for what they charge.  We already know what they DON'T do and what they've missed once we get delivery of a new car.  Would a guy with a toupee admit that he's bald underneath?

Interesting logic.

I paid $.15/L for gas at one station when I was 16. Gas must be $.15/L everywhere now.

My logic holds true as I did not state the cost per hour in absolute terms from 1981.  I simply used "minimum wage" or slightly more.  I suspect dealers do not have journeymen mechanics doing PDI, but instead wash-bay or lot kids that are NOT paid $50/hr or anywhere near that.  $10/hr, perhaps.

You logic sounds good to me.  Your suspicions are likely TRUE.  $10/hr?  Man, you're optimistic, here.  

Mechanics did (do) PDIs at the 3 dealers that I have worked (am working) for.

A friend used to be the assistant service dept. manager.  He employed as many auto mechanics "kids" referred to him by the school teacher as he could find for these things.  The "mechanic" (and only the most junior ones and only if they had nothing else to complete their day) would do PDI.  And yes, the "kids" got minimum wage and they were ecstatic to have a job at a car dealership.

From what I have seen and heard:

key programming
take off protection tape
installing wheel caps/covers
installing radio antenas
setting radio codes
topping up fliud levels
tire alignment
headlight and brake light checks
warning light checks
installing licence plate holders
short road tests
(at most dealers, sales people install the actual licence plates, not mechanics)

Total time spent varies from 0.5 - 1.5 hours depending on mechanic

None of the PDI money goes to the salespeople or sales office.
I don't know what the split is between the dealer and the manufacturer, maybe some of the PDI money goes to the mechanic (I guess no more than $100) but most would be going to the manufacturer, will try to verify in the future.

The dealership's sales department makes peanuts "compared" to the manufacturer.
Which HQ is hiring?  

I'm surprised that key programming isn't done at the factory.
I know that I've received cars where the fluid are NOT topped up, not even close.
Aren't wheel alignments done at the factory, too?
I find my licence plate holders in the trunk.
Road test?  Only from one side of the lot to the other.
The rest can be done by the "trunk monkey".

2. Are charging extra to simply deliver a fully assembly and operational product as expected.

Where do you get this "charging extra" business? Check a few web sites. The manufacturers list "freight and PDI" as part of the total MSRP.

(Now where's that BS flag smilie?)
Maybe your manufacturer does, but here's a couple that clearly states differently:
Go ahead, price them out and see the fine print at the end.....
Smart:  http://www.smart.com/-snm-0135035552-1212588580-0000024834-0000003770-1213285839-enm-is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/mpc-ca-content-Site/en_CA/-/USD/Smart_CC-Overview

Mini:  http://www.mini.ca/en/Model_Range/MINI_Cooper/Build_Your_MINI/default.aspx

Ford Mustang:  http://www.ford.ca/main/default.asp?section=23&garageID=87655&language=en&sVehCategory=FordCars&model=Mustang&modelID=5844&acode=CAB50FOC051A0#/buildandprice/summary/car/CAB80FOC051A0/

Toyota:  http://www.toyota.ca/cgi-bin/WebObjects/WWW.woa/14/wo/Home.Vehicles.Configurator-4iqIlKZwUZiFhRbpY1h2Bg/18.24?page=CfgStep4Frame,taxesin=false,owned=true,tccirate=true,native=false,graduate=false,previewEnabled=false,vehicle=YarisHatchback,model=3%20Door%20CE,year=2008,transmission=Manual,cmID=2020428,lterm=48,lrate=2.9,fterm=60,frate=3.9,owing=0,tradein=0,downpay=0,km=24000,lpalert=false,cpID=2047063,ccID=2257258,interior=Dark%20Grey,lpalert=false,msdamt=0
Shall I continue to list more?  I can, you know.
Sometimes, I think salesmen don't even know what their dealerships really do and sometimes, I think they just (heaven forbid) ...... LIE!  Cord, would you like to just take your CAR SALESMAN hat off for just a moment and talk to us like we are real human beings and not people you constantly try to pull the wool over or like you must constantly justify and excuse what your employer does daily?  Not all of us are as gullible as you would hope we are.

[toolatecrew]

2. Are charging extra to simply deliver a fully assembly and operational product as expected.

Where do you get this "charging extra" business? Check a few web sites. The manufacturers list "freight and PDI" as part of the total MSRP.

From the Toyota website when pricing a car:

If you click the [Include Taxes, Levies, Freight & Delivery] checkbox, the Vehicle Price and Monthly Payment amounts will include all applicable taxes, levies, freight & delivery charges, and lien registration fees (including R.P.M.R.R. in Quebec) for the province or territory you have selected, including the following (if applicable)...

They specifically force you to select a separate button in order to include freight and PDI in the price even though its a "mandatory" part of the price of the vehicle.

If I order an optional dealer installed roof rack I'm charged X$ for the rack and x$ for the dealer to install. I could conceivably just order the rack and install it myself.

But if the car comes with hubcaps the price of the hibcaps is included with the car but I have to pay a PDI charge to have them (Mandatory) put on the car?

Hubcaps and antennas are pieces that are part of the car but "removed" not installed for shipping. By putting this final assmbly on the dealer service dept they are done at a mechanical (which includes markup over the mechanics bases wage) labour rate not at a factor assembly rate.

Speaking of charging extra. All these warning light etc. checks? All these checks need to be passed in order for the vehicle to be legally saftey inspected with a sticker before delivery. What's a aftey inspection at an independent garage cost in NS $25. So are dealers doing the light checks TWICE? Once included in the $25 saftey insoection and another one in the $500 PDI? 

PDI is listed on a separate charge on the window sticker. So are ADMIN fees or aditional dealer markup or any other number of non essential extra charges. It doesn't make them any less an "extra" charge.

Its a marketing ploy to advertise a lower MSRP. It allows you to advertise a vehicle at $19,999 and stay under 20 K rather than show the true "cost" at 20,500. It also protects any margin (for the service depot/dealership not sales dept) becuase it eliminates people from trying to erode the margin like they do with negotiating an MSRP.

I think its pretty simple. If you won't tell me what I get for my $700 PDI in detail it means the dealer has something to hide. Car selling 101 is to list off all the options and features of the vehicle to build VALUE so that you can justify your price. You get air, power windows locks, 3 L engine air bags etc etc. all for only 20K. What a great deal. For $700 we do PDI and have the car ready for you. What don't need to build any value becuase the price is "non negotiable?

If you take your car to the service dept and they tell you It will be $700 to put your vehicle on the road safe and ready to drive but they won't tell you exactly what they will do would anyone here just say OK?

[xviper]

Ooh, and what about that mysterious "documentation fee" or that "administration fee"?  That's a nice little bonus feature, isn't it?  Wanna see how fast they'll eat that if you start wallking out the door on a $50K deal if they don't remove it?  "How fast can a bottle picker pick bottles if a bottle picker could pick bottles?
Anybody think that the prices the business manager tells for the extended warranty are fixed and that you MUST buy it now?  They're hoping everyone will take that nostalgic trip down Gullibles Travels.  I got the extended on my Grand Cherokee for 1/2 the list price.  I said that I'd take it if they cut a deal or I'd just wait till month 12 and buy it at another dealership.
And how about that $200.00 paint protection package that cost the dealer $2.00 in product and the "lot boy" one hour to put on?  (I knew the regional distributor for a bunch of Honda dealers for that product.  He sold me 2 bottles of it for $10.00 each.  Those 2 bottles did 10 cars for me, my friends and family over several years.  OK, the product might cost a bit more now.  Let's bump that up to 20 bucks a bottle.)

[Cord]

I think its pretty simple. If you won't tell me what I get for my $700 PDI in detail it means you have something to hide.

I've got nothing to hide. I work in used sales and I'm sorry that I don't feel the need to spend my personal time investigating an issue to satisfy your petty rantings. I'll tell you what I know and if you don't like what I have to say I couldn't care less. You work in the insurance industry don't you? Does that make you responsible for answering every forum yahoo's complaints about the obscene premiums and poor service that most consumers receive?

It is simple though. When you you screw up your courage to ask for your $500 discount on a new car, just pretend that you are getting the PDI for free. Problem solved.

[xviper]

You work in the insurance industry don't you? Does that make you responsible for answering every forum yahoo's complaints about the obscene premiums and poor service that most consumers receive?

I haven't run a history check on his posts but has he actually fed the kind of BS we've seen here?  Has he given information that has been proven to be false?  Or has he just kept his mouth shut?

I don't think he meant "you" directly.  He used the term "you" as in the "royal" you.  Why do you feel that he was targetting you in particular?  Feeling a bit uncomfortable?

[johngenx]

A long time ago, Mercedes' pricing was "FOB Halifax."  There was no additional PDI charge, only the cost of the freight from Halifax.  If you wished, you could arrange delivery in Halifax, and paid no freight charges.

When I worked for the Honda dealer, we charged for freight, but Honda had negotiated a postage-stamp rate with a carrier so that all dealers paid a set price.  This was a nice bonus for dealers on the east coast.  We passed the cost along to the consumer.  We didn't charge the customer for PDI, as the dealer considered it "a cost of doing business."

However, we did have a nice 13% margin in the cars and thanks to the 1979- oil shock, we sold them all at sticker as fast as we could unload them off the truck.  (and have me PDI them...)

I washed this stickey goo off that was supposed to protect against corrosion during shipment.  Man, than was hard work.  That tape they have now is a massive improvement!  The tires had a blue goop to protect the sidewalls that had to be washed off.  I'd check the fluids, lube the door hinges, torque the wheel nuts and check the tire pressures.  The mechanic would road test the car and I'd barely have time to get the plastic off the seats and the paper off the floor and the customer would hand me their plate and be waiting in the driver's seat.

Motorcycles were another thing altogether.  They came as from Ikea!  All apart in a big wooden crate, and they required a lot of assembly, and 90% of it had to be done by the mechanic.

[airbalancer]

1979- oil shock
I do not remember  oil pricing going crazy in '79
Mid '70's, first gulf war are the 2x I remember

[xviper]

Now where's that BS flag smilie?

Found a couple.  Please feel free to use these at will.  It seems to be getting piled higher and deeper.
   

[kevlar]

i just glaze over when the sales person goes down those list of pdi, frieght, admin and documentation charges.   most consumers shop around and know which charges are excessive and which are not.  shame on you if you don't.    i don't care how they try to justify it.    just like i don't care to listen to a canadian dealer justify a 8-20k dollar difference in the price of the exact same car sold in the states.  the bottom line is what i am interested in.   (yes, i will pay a little more to buy in canada because i want to support our canadian system but in the end that can't add up to 15k dollars difference.)

[xviper]

i just glaze over when the sales person goes down those list of pdi, frieght, admin and documentation charges.   most consumers shop around and know which charges are excessive and which are not.  shame on you if you don't.

I'm with you here.  People should educate themselves about these things, but surveys have shown that the vast majority of car buyers don't negotiate and don't know or don't care about all those fees.  Even though car buying is one of the most unpleasant experiences that we, as consumers, go through in our lives, it's something that not many of us can avoid, directly or indirectly.

In the overall scheme of things, freight is something that is what it is and can be documented and proved.  PDI charges are not.  They simply vary too much from dealer to dealer.  Of course, we all suspect what the doc and admin fees are all about, don't we?  These charges and "fees" are actually fairly small in terms of what the dealer has at their disposal to contribute to the profit margin.  Would anyone in the "car business" like to comment on the difference between MSRP, dealer "invoice", dealer "cost"?  Shall we talk about "dealer hold back"?  How about "rebate to dealer"?  And what about how your month end and year end sales affect next year's "quota", which can mean 100's of thousands of dollars to that profit margin.  Boo hoo if they have to give the few young people their little "student discount".   Oh, and shall we get into the "in's and out's" of the USED car business?  Trade ins?  Dealer transfers?  Black Book?  Red Book?  The book of "sales"?

[johngenx]

1979- oil shock
I do not remember  oil pricing going crazy in '79
Mid '70's, first gulf war are the 2x I remember

Holy buddy, you must have had your head seriously up your ass in 1979 if you don't recall these events...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_energy_crisis

"The Carter Administration began a phased decontrol of oil prices on 5 April when the average price of crude oil was US$15.85. Over the next 12 months the price of crude oil rose to $39.50 (its all time highest real price until May 7th, 2008[7]). During this period domestic U.S. oil output rose sharply from the large Prudhoe Bay fields while oil imports fell sharply. However, since there were no price controls on imported oil, this had no impact on boosting the supply of gasoline in 1979. Hence, long lines appeared at gas stations, as they had six years earlier during the 1973 oil crisis."

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/bg76.cfm

Lots more sources if you need them...

[xviper]

From that same link:

Automobile fuel economy
At the same time, Detroit's then-Big Three automakers (Ford, Chrysler, GM) were marketing downsized automobiles which met the CAFE fuel economy mandates passed in 1978; by the mid-1980s, a majority of rear wheel drive (RWD) family sedans and station wagons sold poorly despite government mandates from CAFE; vehicles like the Ford Fairmont and Dodge St. Regis were short-lived in response to second energy crisis.[citation needed]

GM's Cadillac division experimented with their V8-6-4 power plant (the ancestor of the modern-day Active Fuel Management and/or variable displacement), which was a market failure.[12]

When RWD family sedans were marketed during this era, this is where Japanese imports were building inroads; by the start of the 1980s, every automaker was making the transition to front-wheel drive.

They shoved emissions control up our ying yangs and charged us for it.  Then, as the years went by, they gave us back our HP.  Of course, we paid dearly for that, too.  Reemed up the hoop to take it away and reemed again to give it back.  Wonderful!

[johngenx]

Yeah, but Detriot would NEVER have done that on their own.  The gov't madated the pollution controls and then held fast, and guess what?  Makers adapted and now we have cleaner cars and more HP to boot.  Worth the short term pain...

[airbalancer]

1979- oil shock
I do not remember  oil pricing going crazy in '79
Mid '70's, first gulf war are the 2x I remember

Holy buddy, you must have had your head seriously up your ass in 1979 if you don't recall these events...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_energy_cris

"The Carter Administration began a phased decontrol of oil prices on 5 April when the average price of crude oil was US$15.85. Over the next 12 months the price of crude oil rose to $39.50 (its all time highest real price until May 7th, 2008[7]). During this period domestic U.S. oil output rose sharply from the large Prudhoe Bay fields while oil imports fell sharply. However, since there were no price controls on imported oil, this had no impact on boosting the supply of gasoline in 1979. Hence, long lines appeared at gas stations, as they had six years earlier during the 1973 oil crisis."

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/bg76.cfm

Lots more sources if you need them...

I guess it would depend what was happening in your life at that time.
The price of gas was not one of the things has was most important in my life at the time
Just like it is not now

[johngenx]

I guess it would depend what was happening in your life at that time.
The price of gas was not one of the things has was most important in my life at the time
Just like it is not now

In 1979, the price of gas didn't make any difference to me either.  I was 13 that summer and we lived on Baffin Island and didn't have a car anyway.  But, massive geopolitical upheaval and oil shock news was on the radio daily (we didn't have tele) and even a stoned/stunned teen like myself was following the events.  It's nice to know a little history, as it tends to repeat itself...

[initial_D]

1979 ... didn't know what gas was. Heard of the horror stores of 20% mortgage rates, and cars with 50HP engines tho.

[johngenx]

1979 ... didn't know what gas was. Heard of the horror stores of 20% mortgage rates, and cars with 50HP engines tho.

Yup.  The 1979 oil crisis was the lead in to the massive stagflation that was the wonderful combination of recession, rapidly rising unemployment, inflation and BoC panic that resulted in 20%+ mortgages.