CTC Review: 2008 Saturn Vue Hybrid

[Alex MacLean]

There's a shocker, another GM vehicles suck review.

Somehow I get the feeling that if this thing had a big "H" or Toyota badge on it, we'd be reading an entirely different review. I'm sure it's not a perfect vehicle but seriously, how can this vehicle possible be as bad as you claim?

[rrocket]

Where does he say it sucks?  He gushes over the interior, saying how beautiful it is.  He's not impressed with the 4 speed..no shocker there.    And the ride is so-so. I would hardly say he is calling it crap.  But James drives so many vehicles in a year it's instantly apparent when you are in a "lesser" vehicle.  James' reviews are also pretty fair.

Let's be honest...The Big 3 are miles behind in hybrid technology compared to Honda or Toyota.

[Leviathan]

Let's be honest...The Big 3 are miles behind in hybrid technology compared to Honda or Toyota.

The Escape Hybrid is a pretty darn good.

[rrocket]

^^^^I don't disagree with that. It's a good vehicle.  But if you think the hybrid tech in Big 3 is equivalent to Honda or Toyota...well, you're lying to yourself...

[Mitlov]

Let's be honest...The Big 3 are miles behind in hybrid technology compared to Honda or Toyota.

That depends on how you measure it.  In terms of mechanical complexity and out-and-out fuel economy improvements, Honda's and GM's systems lag far behind Toyota and Ford's hybrids.  But it's a simpler and thus more cost-efficient design, which translates into a smaller hybrid premium in terms of purchase price.  

There was an article in the local newspaper about how long it takes you to pay back the hybrid premium with the fuel savings (i.e., before owning the hybrid actually makes economic sense instead of just environmental sense).  While the Chevy Malibu posts pretty unimpressive numbers compared to other hybrids, it actually topped the list, with just 2.5 years ownership before you break even economically with the non-hybrid model.  A Highlander Hybrid took over 11 years to pay off the hybrid premium, if I recall correctly.

I think the more complex hybrid systems you see in Toyotas and Fords are better for saving the planet (they post better overall fuel economy numbers), but the simpler systems you see in Hondas and GMs seem to be better solutions for those people concerned about their economic bottom line.

[Mitlov]

^^^^I don't disagree with that. It's a good vehicle.  But if you think the hybrid tech in Big 3 is equivalent to Honda or Toyota...well, you're lying to yourself...

You're not giving credit where credit is due, rrocket.  Look beyond the badges and the nations of origin.  There are indeed two camps in the hybrid market, but it's not Honda and Toyota versus Ford and GM.  It's Toyota and Ford versus Honda and GM.  Two very different theories and strategies of how to build a hybrid car.

[rrocket]

Mits...what kind of tax breaks, if any do you guys get on hybrids?


IIRC....GM even terms their hybrid a "mild hybrid"....

[rrocket]

^^^^I don't disagree with that. It's a good vehicle.  But if you think the hybrid tech in Big 3 is equivalent to Honda or Toyota...well, you're lying to yourself...

You're not giving credit where credit is due, rrocket.  Look beyond the badges and the nations of origin.  There are indeed two camps in the hybrid market, but it's not Honda and Toyota versus Ford and GM.  It's Toyota and Ford versus Honda and GM.  Two very different theories and strategies of how to build a hybrid car.

I do.  Honda had their hybrid back in 2000.  Plus they have their new hydrogen car.  I stand by my comment.  And like I said..the Escape is a very good vehicle.  My friend has one and loves it...problem free too!

[Mitlov]

Mits...what kind of tax breaks, if any do you guys get on hybrids?

http://www.hybridcars.com/federal-incentives.html

$3150 for a Prius, $3000 for an Escape/Mariner/Tribute, all the way down to $650 for a Vue Green Line and $450 for an LS600hL.  Though the Honda and Toyota tax credits have recently diminished because of a 60,000 hybrid limit per automaker, which Toyota hit in June 2006 and Honda hit in late 2007.

IIRC....GM even terms their hybrid a "mild hybrid"....

And that's precisely what the New York Times used in a 1999 article about the Insight.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F07E0D6153EF932A35753C1A96F958260

Likewise, the Automotive News referred to the Civic Hybrid as a mild hybrid in 2005.

http://www.hybridcarblog.com/2005/05/jetta-mild-hybrid-within-two-years.html

Once again--the Honda and GM systems are very similar to each other, and the Toyota and Ford systems are very similar to each other.  It seems to me that someone should either like one mechanical approach or the other.  Thus, aspersions cast on GM's system should apply to the Civic Hybrid and Accord Hybrid as well.  Praise directed at Toyota's system likely holds true for Ford as well.  To praise Honda and Toyota's hybrid lineups while criticizing "the Big Three's" hybrids (i.e., GM's various hybrids plus the Escape/Mariner) displays more national loyalty than logical consistency.

You're not giving credit where credit is due, rrocket.  Look beyond the badges and the nations of origin.  There are indeed two camps in the hybrid market, but it's not Honda and Toyota versus Ford and GM.  It's Toyota and Ford versus Honda and GM.  Two very different theories and strategies of how to build a hybrid car.

I do.  Honda had their hybrid back in 2000.  Plus they have their new hydrogen car.

Wait, are we talking about what hybrids available today are best, or who was first?  Those are two entirely different questions.  I'll give you that Honda and Toyota were in the hybrid market much sooner than Ford or GM, but that has nothing to do with whether or not they lag behind today.  And if what matters to you is who was first instead of who is best today, I'm sure barrie can entertain you with a loooooooong list of GM firsts.  Does that have any relevance on what model you should buy if you're buying a car in 2008?

The Clarity isn't a hybrid, so I'm not sure what it has to do with this thread.  I may as well start praising MB's Blutec diesels if we're going to widen this discussion beyond hybrids.

[drederick]

Let's be honest...The Big 3 are miles behind in hybrid technology compared to Honda or Toyota.

That is an interesting statement. I suppose you have not read any news in the past year or so, right?

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/awards/0802_gm_two_mode_hybrid_technology_of_the_year/index.html

Technology of the Year: GM's Two-Mode Hybrid System

General Motors' Two-Mode hybrid system is the most significant gasoline-electric propulsion advancement since the original Toyota Prius. Chevrolet Tahoes and GMC Yukons equipped with this technology can achieve 20 mpg or more, which is equivalent to that of a four-cylinder mid-size sedan in city driving.

According to the US EPA the Tahoe Hybrid which weighs over 5000 pounds, that can tow at least 6000 pounds, has a 6L making 332 hp and a 4 Speed auto.....  gets the same fuel economy in the city as a Camry 4cylinder auto:

21 mpg

That is serious engineering.

No offence but if this two mode system is what being 'miles behind' other hybrid systems really means.... then I would rather be in reverse in a GM/MB/Chrysler with this technology!

The BAS system used right now on the Aura greenline/malibu hybrids etc is not the best system by far. But it also doesn't cost as much as other hybrids out there. I for one would love to have the system on my cars, though, just for the shutting off the engine at stop lights alone as I spend alot of my commute just sitting idle getting 0mpg.

P.S. GM has announced details of their next gen BAS2, which is right around the corner and will be much better in that it will allow for the car to move without the engine on for a short period amongst other advances.

[msantos]

Once again--the Honda and GM systems are very similar to each other, and the Toyota and Ford systems are very similar to each other. 

Sorry.  No they not.

The Toyota and Ford architectures are full (strong) hybrids
The Honda IMA is a power assist hybrid
The GM BAS system is a mild hybrid

Please do not confuse Honda with GM hybrid systems.  It is a ill-informed mistake

The Honda system has exactly the same hybrid components as the Toyota HSD system (except for the PSD).  This includes a significant reduction in the gas engine displacement because there is a significant contribution from the electric stator/motor to make up for it.  The Civic Hybrid without a fully charged SoC is a dog accelerating and so is the Prius.  You'll me hard pressed to notice the absence of electric assist on the BAS system.

The BAS system in the GM has nowhere the energy density, complexity and sophistication of the Honda IMA and Toyota HSD. 

Also for the record, the Civic Hybrid and Toyota Prius are only 1-2 MPG different in combined fuel efficiency.

MSantos

[Mitlov]

Whenever I hear a Honda fan describe why the Honda hybrid system is totally different from the GM hybrid system, I can't help but think of the Vanilla Ice interview where he explained how the "Ice Ice Baby" bass line is totally different from Queen's "Under Pressure"

[MSantos]

As you wish.

But, do let me know if you decide to discuss hybrid topologies further and I promise I will be as factual as possible.

MSantos

[dd]

Wow only 15 years to get the interior right, it'll be another 15 for the hybrid technology.

"I was surprised to learn that the Vue had a rear stabilizer bar, as it tends to lean quite a lot in corners, giving you that uneasy tipsy feeling.
Most drivers won’t be whipping around corners in their new Vue, so perhaps that is irrelevant."

Yeah rollovers are not a big concern for SUVs .

[MVesseur]

This is becoming more and more of a biased, subjective review. What's wrong with 10 litre/100 km fuel consumption for an SUV? Sounds pretty good to me and I'm assuming Mr. Bergeron is not the slowest of drivers.
On the other hand: the interior space of a Matrix - should this be true - in a car that weighs twice as much is admittedly nonsensical, but then you can say that about any SUV. It's a ridiculous trend, to be sure, but if the journalist obviously doesn't like SUV's, why is he doing the review?
More objective journalism, please.

[wing]

It's ok for an SUV, but a HYBRID SUV?  Please read again to understand. I drove very gingerly this week to try to get the best out of the Hybrid -- no go.

Hence the complaint, why get a Hybrid SUV that gets the same fuel economy of other similarly sized cars and SUVs? It makes no sense.

A CR-V will return you 10L/100km, or how about a Mazda5, more room same fuel economy. 

[drederick]

It's ok for an SUV, but a HYBRID SUV?  Please read again to understand. I drove very gingerly this week to try to get the best out of the Hybrid -- no go.

Hence the complaint, why get a Hybrid SUV that gets the same fuel economy of other similarly sized cars and SUVs? It makes no sense.

A CR-V will return you 10L/100km, or how about a Mazda5, more room same fuel economy. 

10l/100kms average is great for an SUV. The question that begs to be asked is what exactly is the commute of this tester? does it actually take advantage of the BAS mild hybrid system in the Vue? How much time is spent at stop lights where the engine shut off is actually going to provide the benefit that the system offers?

Do we actually KNOW that a CR-V or Mazda5 WILL get better fuel economy in the real world?

This leads to a suggestion I have been thinking of for a while:

Can the test drivers create a test loop for their test drives that will allow for repeatable condictions in which to test vehicles? Ride and handling/interior etc can be done pretty much anyhwere at anytime.... but fuel economy is SO related to the weather/traffic etc that there should be a better way to get the numbers.

My suggestion:

Filling up the tank at 8pm and driving on the 401 for an hour (30 minutes each way) with the cruise set at 110 km/h for highway FE. Around town the same sort of test should be done, where they map out the same route and take it after filling up the tank and then driving during a time where the traffic will not be an influence.

Wouldn't this create a better apples to apples comparison for FE?

[quadzilla]

Gee...I thought the tester has a real job, real commute and uses the vehicles for real world things. If this isn't a way to get real world mileage I don't know what is. If you have to design the route to aid the mileage of the vehicle, how good is it really?

[wing]

Sure it probably would.  I'd say my route into work everyday is a great test though.

It is a combination of 80km/h roads and a short city section of 50km/h and 40km/h roads including a few stop signs and lights.  I do this 5 times a week per vehicle so it averages out based on some days hitting green lights other days hitting red.

Oh yes and I do this at 7am and 3:30pm typically when traffic is very light.

It's not scientific though.....

[drederick]

Gee...I thought the tester has a real job, real commute and uses the vehicles for real world things. If this isn't a way to get real world mileage I don't know what is. If you have to design the route to aid the mileage of the vehicle, how good is it really?

Isn't the point to be able to use the reviews/test drives to compare vehicles? so wouldn't it be best to report FE based on tests that are as repeatable as possible? The routes I propsed weren't to aid the mileage of any vehicle, it was to try and limit the uncontrollable imapcts of other factors on that vehicles mileage.

I read Wings post and it sounds like the 'commute' that the vehicles are taken on is pretty much the same and done at the same time and so this is pretty close to ideal for comparison - so long as each one is driven with the same 'pace'

That commute is a heck of a lot better than mine (and many others) down the 401 to Toronto from out west each day. Traffic is too unpredicatble to allow for one week to get an accurate picture of what a vehicles FE would be for any sort of comparison with another vehicle, even if that other vehicle is driven the same route even at the same time the following week. 

Repeatability is the key.