Topic: 'Feebate' program is flawed, more taxes needed

[2latecrew]

"I'm not advocating taxing PEOPLE who can afford an Escalade more. That doesn't directly effect the problem. Tax heavily VEHICLES that 1. Have poor consumption 2. Consume unnecessarily."

And who pays the tax? Vehicles don't pay tax, people pay  tax. 


Anyway my plan for taxing inefficient vehicles would make no difference to anything.  People would still buy them.

You are taxing the CHOICE to buy the vehicle. Not taxing the person because he makes X $s.

If you make 100k a year and buy an Escalade you will pay more tax. if you make 100K and can afford an Escalade but buy a Prius instead you are not paying more tax. not a hard concept.

You are taxing the CHOICE to buy the vehicle. Not taxing the person because he makes X $s.

If you make 100k a year and buy an Escalade you will pay more tax. if you make 100K and can afford an Escalade but buy a Prius instead you are not paying more tax. not a hard concept

I do not think that the aim is to eradicate SUV purchases. But you could substantially reduce them. Yes some people will still buy them. if an NBA player making 5 M a year wants an Escalade but will have ti pay an extra 20K in tax on it he's gonna buy it. But the Joe blow that makes 60 or 70K and wants to look like an NBA player will not. Someone who was choosing between a Ford Escape and a Fusion because they are the same price but the SUV looks cool will think twice about the escape if subbenly tis real world price becomes 5 K more than the Fusion because of a tax.

[safristi]

...GOVERNMENT ENGINEERING....never a GOOD thing     IMHO....COMRADE...

 Just wait till they come after YOUR fav Pastime......? aka Fantino + RACING for EXempla......

[airbalancer]

if an NBA player making 5 M a year wants an Escalade but will have ti pay an extra 20K in tax on it he's gonna buy it. But the Joe blow that makes 60 or 70K and wants to look like an NBA player will not.
And if the person is 6-6 making $50gs what is he going to drive comfortable and have some sit behind him

All I read is about is tax this, tax that, I am sick of other government taking my money on spend on thing I do not want.
I been in non profit organizations , that spend more money on furniture then private business.

I am sick of see the government spend money on sport arenas, large and small business grants and very little money on helping children, daycare and schools

[tpl]

"I do not think that the aim is to eradicate SUV purchases. But you could substantially reduce them. Yes some people will still buy them. if an NBA player making 5 M a year wants an Escalade but will have ti pay an extra 20K in tax on it he's gonna buy it. But the Joe blow that makes 60 or 70K and wants to look like an NBA player will not. Someone who was choosing between a Ford Escape and a Fusion because they are the same price but the SUV looks cool will think twice about the escape if suddenly tis real world price becomes 5 K more than the Fusion because of a tax."

Well ok  but... YOU can be the one to argue with GM,Ford and Chrysler when their sales drop to zilch and 1/2 of the Ontario auto workers are laid off.   Btw I have no idea what is the proportion of the SUVs that would affected are built in Canada,... but I'd bet that if an SUV line is closed in the USA then with that latest UAW-GM deal that that particular factory would stay in business and a Canadian line would get shut down.  Law of unintended consequences.

OTOH Canada is a small market

Most of the import brands are relatively small players in the SUV business as they have popular car lines.  The Big 3 have gotten themselves far too dependent on SUVs and Pickup.

Again, why bother with the social engineering,  For every SUV that is no longer sold in Canada 10 people in China will buy a car anyway.

[Seafoam]

I don't think any of this is going to matter anyway. The price of oil is going to keep going up,  eventually people will stop buying gas guzzlers. It's just going to take time. Any time the government tries to do something they end up screwing up. I know for me i would rather pay 35 dollars to fill my car up than pay 70 or 80. I can use that extra money to spend some where else instead of watching it go out my tailpipe.

[safristi]

 ..Cut back on Trans Fatty Fast Foods and Take-OUT.... Exercise...don't SMOKE....... and BOOZE like a BUGGER........it's more important wot comes out YOUR tail_PIPE........

[2latecrew]

I hate it when people suggest using taxes as a force of social engineering.  If there's no concern about the few people that will be taxed unfairly and if the goal is to eradicate the offensive item anyway, why not just advocate a complete ban on the offending item and be done with it?

Because the goal isn't a ban on the offending item. That's too narrow minded to impact the problem.

Hey NO SUVs. Fine lets build "station wagons" that are just as inefficient but are lower to the ground etc so they don't get banned. The desired behaviour is not no more SUVs in the world. Its to have manufacturers build more efficient cars so eventually everyone is driving more efficient cars and burning less fuel.

If a manufacturer wants to produce a lightweight fuel efficient vehicle that looks identical to an Escalade go for it. If you can figure out a way to have an Escalade get 40 mpg more power to you. Maybe if you put a 20K tax on the no efficient ones but it only costs 15K more to make an efficient one per car then we'd see a real shift.

In an ideal world the onus would be on the manufacturers to produce fuel efficient vehicles that people want and can afford. But since they are profit driven and in the short term more efficient means more cost they have less incentive to do it. Because the oil companies have so much lobby power within the government they simply won't push them to do it. Its just a reality. So if the government would stand up to the industry at least when they do something it should be progressive and not regressive which is what a gas tax would be.

[2latecrew]

"I do not think that the aim is to eradicate SUV purchases. But you could substantially reduce them. Yes some people will still buy them. if an NBA player making 5 M a year wants an Escalade but will have ti pay an extra 20K in tax on it he's gonna buy it. But the Joe blow that makes 60 or 70K and wants to look like an NBA player will not. Someone who was choosing between a Ford Escape and a Fusion because they are the same price but the SUV looks cool will think twice about the escape if suddenly tis real world price becomes 5 K more than the Fusion because of a tax."

Well ok  but... YOU can be the one to argue with GM,Ford and Chrysler when their sales drop to zilch and 1/2 of the Ontario auto workers are laid off.   Btw I have no idea what is the proportion of the SUVs that would affected are built in Canada,... but I'd bet that if an SUV line is closed in the USA then with that latest UAW-GM deal that that particular factory would stay in business and a Canadian line would get shut down.  Law of unintended consequences.

OTOH Canada is a small market

Most of the import brands are relatively small players in the SUV business as they have popular car lines.  The Big 3 have gotten themselves far too dependent on SUVs and Pickup.

Again, why bother with the social engineering,  For every SUV that is no longer sold in Canada 10 people in China will buy a car anyway.

Why bother with an increased gas tax in canada. For every person in Canada who buys less gas in Canada becuase of increased tax there will be 10 in China who by the same or more.

Canada's population is tiny compared to Chaina so why do anything at all if China doesn't..is that the point?

This thread argued for gas taxes over rebates based on the assumption that SOMETHINg would be done. I'm simply arguing why gas taxes are an upalatable alternative. .

All we can do in Canada is effect Canada.

[2latecrew]

All I read is about is tax this, tax that, I am sick of other government taking my money on spend on thing I do not want.
I been in non profit organizations , that spend more money on furniture then private business.

I am sick of see the government spend money on sport arenas, large and small business grants and very little money on helping children, daycare and schools

I agree I don't want the government spending any more of MY money on stupid stuff. The choice presented in the thread was basically a vehicle tax/feebate or a gasoline consumption tax.

A vehicle tax results in less of MY (and your) money being controlled by the government because we can CHOOSE not to buy a heavily taxed vehicle. I don't want the Government controlling 10K of my $ and spending it on sports arenas. So I won't buy an SUV.

If you tax gas more heavily then they are going to get my money and spend it on sports arenas because I have to buy gas to work and live.

[safristi]

..TRY Z-MAX TAX....brought to U by Fantino & McSQUINTY..............

[Leviathan]

The one-time tax seems silly. If you are going to tax the "abusers" make it a tax that keeps on taxing.  A federal licensing fee collected at the same time the provincial fee would be the ticket. Ah, but what parameters? Non-commercial vehicles for starters I guess. What is the fee structure?  Perhaps something based on the square of the combined fuel use of the vehicle. What to do with the monies collected? Spend it on sports arenas of course! Kidding. Alternate fuel research and power generation technologies/plants to meet demand as people start moving to plug-in type vehicles.

Any other targets? How about monster houses? Smokers and their butane lighters? Saf's beer fridge?

[Jameel]

if an NBA player making 5 M a year wants an Escalade but will have ti pay an extra 20K in tax on it he's gonna buy it. But the Joe blow that makes 60 or 70K and wants to look like an NBA player will not.
And if the person is 6-6 making $50gs what is he going to drive comfortable and have some sit behind him

All I read is about is tax this, tax that, I am sick of other government taking my money on spend on thing I do not want.
I been in non profit organizations , that spend more money on furniture then private business.

I am sick of see the government spend money on sport arenas, large and small business grants and very little money on helping children, daycare and schools

In that case if you can prove that you can not fit in a small car, then you are exempt from the tax. Otherwise, all non-commercial vehicles who do not meet a certain MPG, will be taxed. Regardless of SUV, CUV, waggaon, etc....

If you increase the tax on gas even more it punishes everybody, that's no fair, but if you choose a gas guzzler than you should pay for it.

As a side note:
The government will always squander our money to a certain extent. No matter who we elect.  The powers that be will always line their pockets, or spend our tax dollars on useless stuff.

[2latecrew]

I would think there are more than a few more efficeint vehicles than Escalades or Suburbans or other bigger SUVs that will seat a 6 foot 6 person with someone behind them. There are any number of Minvans that are more fuel efficient than SUVs that will easily accomplish that.

[dorin]

As a side note:
The government will always squander our money to a certain extent. No matter who we elect.  The powers that be will always line their pockets, or spend our tax dollars on useless stuff.

To be more fair, any large organization will squander money to a certain extent.  No matter who runs them, the powers-that-be will always make sure they do well for themselves and spend money on useless stuff.

[safristi]

..an overall Master Feebate programme would yank everone to their senses.......

[dorin]

All this feebate vs. gas tax is too much of a headache.  Just do both!   

[Cord]

If you increase the tax on gas even more it punishes everybody, that's no fair, but if you choose a gas guzzler than you should pay for it.

Don't you know that all gas use is bad? A Honda Fit driver just uses less of a bad thing than an Escalade driver. The Fit driver certainly doesn't deserve a free ride. Both need to be punished for their use of the bad, bad gasoline. The driver of the gas guzzler will be punished more by paying more for fuel.

Its all relative. If everyone in Canada drove nothing but subcompacts the worldwide situation of global warming or of petroleum use would not change one iota. But there would still be CTC members wanting to outlaw gas guzzling Cobalts (or whatever).

 

[Titanium48]

Higher gasoline taxes don't need to be regressive.  The revenue could be used to lower income taxes by raising the personal exemption (which would give the same amount of money to everyone who pays income tax).  Corporate taxes could be lowered in exchange for a higher minimum wage (to help the people who don't pay income tax).