Topic: CTC Review: 2008 Honda Civic Si Sedan

[Blueprint]

Wing, you should mention that the SI needs premium.

For the money, I would not compare with the CSX Type S, but with the regular CSX with the - probably - torquier 2.0 engine.  That car probably bridges the gap between a regular Civic and an SI.

[Zombie]

HP is still the number you need to be looking at not torque.

Bit of a chicken and egg thing don't you think? HP = T(r) * r / 5250 or something like that.

I would prefer to have accessible go-power at lower RPMs. Makes me wonder why I drive a 4 banger Honda.

In normal driving, I'd probably just barely touch 100hp at the wheels when accelerating (figure 205HP peak at 7100 RPM = roughly 100 crank HP at 3500 RPM, if the torque curve is more or less flat...of course considerably less HP at the wheels). When cruising? Maybe 65-70 HP at the wheels.

I *think* that a high torque, low redline engine is probably better for short bursts of acceleration, and definitely so for comfortable cruising. A high strung, lower torque engine might have more go-power at very high RPM, of course.

Umm your missing the point. If you are just cruising you don't need extra power just put it in 6th and drive. For every day driving you have a car that is great on gas if you keep it under 6K rpm and when you need it the extra power it is there. Mind you keeping the car under 6K rpm might be hard since once you start you will like it. Its kind of like a drug, exhilarating and addictive.

[si]

FYI..

Driving in the city, I regularly maintain 50kph in 6th gear barely touching the throttle...

[Snowman]

FYI..

Driving in the city, I regularly maintain 50kph in 6th gear barely touching the throttle...

  6TH gear at 50KPH what’s that …2 lbs of torque. That is not what 6th gear is for…. or 5th for that matter.

[The Mighty Duck]

  Torque is great for acceleration - once you're at speed, it doesn't matter so much.  OTOH, 6th gear is great for fuel economy.

[Snowman]

  Torque is great for acceleration - once you're at speed, it doesn't matter so much.  OTOH, 6th gear is great for fuel economy.

6th gear is great for traveling at highway speeds, not around town at the verge of stalling. There is an optimal RPM operating range for the engine.

[Titanium]

I'm a big Honda fan having had a 95 hatch from new for over 300,000 km and now having a 2007 4 door LX (and even a Honda lawnmower!). My one pet peeve about the current model is the parking brake handle. I have to put a piece of foam around it to keep it from jabbing into my leg. I think we in left hand drive countries got the short end of the stick here when they put it on the left side of the console. Please, Honda - stop doing this!!!!

[B2]

6th gear is great for traveling at highway speeds, not around town at the verge of stalling. There is an optimal RPM operating range for the engine.

I use 6th gear in my Mazdaspeed3 for anything above 60 km/h.  Maybe as low as 55 km/h, but rarely.  Cruising on the highway or in town at 60 on flat ground works great, and I get better mileage.

However, I WISH that the 6th gear would've been made so that at 120 km/h the RPM's were 2000.  (currently 3000 at 120km/h).  Why is this so difficult to achieve?  If they did this, they can advertise much better fuel mileage.  There's 5 other gears for acceleration.  Make the last one for high speed cruising, dammit!

[mmret]

HP is still the number you need to be looking at not torque.

Bit of a chicken and egg thing don't you think? HP = T(r) * r / 5250 or something like that.

I would prefer to have accessible go-power at lower RPMs. Makes me wonder why I drive a 4 banger Honda.

In normal driving, I'd probably just barely touch 100hp at the wheels when accelerating (figure 205HP peak at 7100 RPM = roughly 100 crank HP at 3500 RPM, if the torque curve is more or less flat...of course considerably less HP at the wheels). When cruising? Maybe 65-70 HP at the wheels.

I *think* that a high torque, low redline engine is probably better for short bursts of acceleration, and definitely so for comfortable cruising. A high strung, lower torque engine might have more go-power at very high RPM, of course.

Umm your missing the point. If you are just cruising you don't need extra power just put it in 6th and drive. For every day driving you have a car that is great on gas if you keep it under 6K rpm and when you need it the extra power it is there. Mind you keeping the car under 6K rpm might be hard since once you start you will like it. Its kind of like a drug, exhilarating and addictive.

Don't recall you mentioning anything about fuel efficiency.

If you had crazy torque you could drive at like 1500rpm at 100+km/h in a really tall gear, power output ends up being the same.

[articsteve]

I'm a big Honda fan having had a 95 hatch from new for over 300,000 km and now having a 2007 4 door LX (and even a Honda lawnmower!). My one pet peeve about the current model is the parking brake handle. I have to put a piece of foam around it to keep it from jabbing into my leg. I think we in left hand drive countries got the short end of the stick here when they put it on the left side of the console. Please, Honda - stop doing this!!!!

My one pet peeve about the current model is the parking brake handle. I have to put a piece of foam around it to keep it from jabbing into my leg.

It's really bad.  I just put a thick winter leather glove over it.  Not a fun driver with summer shorts.     If it wasn't for resale, I would have put a torch to it in an attempt to heat form it (bend it).

The other thing is the gas gage.  Very long as I remember.  Many little, very brightly lit display blocks starring one right in the face .... every second.  I just didn't want to be reminded about the cost of gas every second I drove it. 

Other than that great car.

[si]

My one pet peeve about the current model is the parking brake handle. I have to put a piece of foam around it to keep it from jabbing into my leg.

That bugs me too..


But anyway re: wing's comment: Although the shifter is a joy to use, I find getting into third gear to be a bit on the dodgy side; it seems more notched than the other gears.

For those of you not in the know, this is an issue of all RSX-S and Civic Si 6 speeds.  Third gear is notchy, expecially when cold.  You can physically throw the gear lever into third, but it doesn't always engage --- there is a little 1mm notch you push forward to grind-ly engage.  I've also had this on 5th gear, but to a lesser degree.

Some owners have taken their cars into the dealerships multiple times with no fix -- others have had complete tranny rebuilds under warranty.  The only real "fix" seems to be flushing the transmission fluid with Amsoil MTF.  I have had NO 3rd gear problems since I flushed mine.

PS. Rev holding sucks.
PSS.  I heart 50kph in 6th.
PSSS.  I really heart the 5800 rpm cam change.

[Snowman]

6th gear is great for traveling at highway speeds, not around town at the verge of stalling. There is an optimal RPM operating range for the engine.

I use 6th gear in my Mazdaspeed3 for anything above 60 km/h.  Maybe as low as 55 km/h, but rarely.  Cruising on the highway or in town at 60 on flat ground works great, and I get better mileage.

However, I WISH that the 6th gear would've been made so that at 120 km/h the RPM's were 2000.  (currently 3000 at 120km/h).  Why is this so difficult to achieve?  If they did this, they can advertise much better fuel mileage.  There's 5 other gears for acceleration.  Make the last one for high speed cruising, dammit!

I’m not concerned with fuel economy, I have a turbocharged car . Other than highway speeds I run at the gear and rpm range that makes that sweet turbo spooling sound…..2500 RPM is heaven ......touch the throttle and….

[B2]

I’m not concerned with fuel economy, I have a turbocharged car Smiley. Other than highway speeds I run at the gear and rpm range that makes that sweet turbo spooling sound…..2500 RPM is heaven ......touch the throttle and….

If you're not concerned with fuel economy then you are rare in this day and age.  I wish I was wealthy enough to not be concerned with fuel economy.  Maybe then I would've bought a HEMI.

In the Mazdaspeed3, the turbo whine cannot be heard (from within the cabin) as easily as most other cars that I've experienced.  Really, you don't hear it much at all.  Maybe it's because there's plenty other road noise, etc...   Turbo feels like it kicks in about 3000 rpm's, which is around the rpm of moving 120-130 km/h.  Fuel economy starts dropping off right there.  So if I'm feeling cheap I keep it under 110 km/h.  At those speeds, for a nice comfortable pass I don't even need to gear down.  This is why I wish 6th gear was more spaced out, because I'd have no problem going down to 5th to pass.  My brother's Trans Am WS6 has a 6th gear that is more spaced I think.  But the V8 has so much torque at any RPM that it doesn't matter.

[Snowman]

I’m not concerned with fuel economy, I have a turbocharged car Smiley. Other than highway speeds I run at the gear and rpm range that makes that sweet turbo spooling sound…..2500 RPM is heaven ......touch the throttle and….

If you're not concerned with fuel economy then you are rare in this day and age.  I wish I was wealthy enough to not be concerned with fuel economy.  Maybe then I would've bought a HEMI.

In the Mazdaspeed3, the turbo whine cannot be heard (from within the cabin) as easily as most other cars that I've experienced.  Really, you don't hear it much at all.  Maybe it's because there's plenty other road noise, etc...   Turbo feels like it kicks in about 3000 rpm's, which is around the rpm of moving 120-130 km/h.  Fuel economy starts dropping off right there.  So if I'm feeling cheap I keep it under 110 km/h.  At those speeds, for a nice comfortable pass I don't even need to gear down.  This is why I wish 6th gear was more spaced out, because I'd have no problem going down to 5th to pass.  My brother's Trans Am WS6 has a 6th gear that is more spaced I think.  But the V8 has so much torque at any RPM that it doesn't matter.

I’m not concerned with fuel economy because if $200 more a month on fuel puts me over the edge then I should have bought something else. I have an aftermarket exhaust that is 3-1/2” SS from the turbo back. This replaced all sound deadening OEM exhaust and shaved about 100 lbs. The spooling sound is magic to my ears.

[mdxtasy]

I’m not concerned with fuel economy, I have a turbocharged car Smiley. Other than highway speeds I run at the gear and rpm range that makes that sweet turbo spooling sound…..2500 RPM is heaven ......touch the throttle and….

If you're not concerned with fuel economy then you are rare in this day and age.  I wish I was wealthy enough to not be concerned with fuel economy.  Maybe then I would've bought a HEMI.

In the Mazdaspeed3, the turbo whine cannot be heard (from within the cabin) as easily as most other cars that I've experienced.  Really, you don't hear it much at all.  Maybe it's because there's plenty other road noise, etc...   Turbo feels like it kicks in about 3000 rpm's, which is around the rpm of moving 120-130 km/h.  Fuel economy starts dropping off right there.  So if I'm feeling cheap I keep it under 110 km/h.  At those speeds, for a nice comfortable pass I don't even need to gear down.  This is why I wish 6th gear was more spaced out, because I'd have no problem going down to 5th to pass.  My brother's Trans Am WS6 has a 6th gear that is more spaced I think.  But the V8 has so much torque at any RPM that it doesn't matter.

I’m not concerned with fuel economy because if $200 more a month on fuel puts me over the edge then I should have bought something else. I have an aftermarket exhaust that is 3-1/2” SS from the turbo back. This replaced all sound deadening OEM exhaust and shaved about 100 lbs. The spooling sound is magic to my ears.

I'm with you Snowy.  Fuel prices don't concern me and I use what I need to use.  As for 50kph in the tallest gear?  In the Porsche, I'm in either 2nd gear when at 50kph.  Sometimes 1st.

[articsteve]

There is a bold typeface warning in my 924S's owner's handbook:  (paraphrasing) Don't shift gears under 3000 rpm; and they weren't kidding.  Probably due to the old 2 valve per cylinder technology.

My sister had back to back Saab turbos, both sticks, which I could never understand, and she was one bad lugger.  She sucked the energy right out of me when she drove: lug, lug, lug.  So exhausting to ride with drivers like her.  If her motor hit 3000 rpm just once a year it was a miracle.

[si]

I’m not concerned with fuel economy, I have a turbocharged car Smiley. Other than highway speeds I run at the gear and rpm range that makes that sweet turbo spooling sound…..2500 RPM is heaven ......touch the throttle and….

If you're not concerned with fuel economy then you are rare in this day and age.  I wish I was wealthy enough to not be concerned with fuel economy.  Maybe then I would've bought a HEMI.

In the Mazdaspeed3, the turbo whine cannot be heard (from within the cabin) as easily as most other cars that I've experienced.  Really, you don't hear it much at all.  Maybe it's because there's plenty other road noise, etc...   Turbo feels like it kicks in about 3000 rpm's, which is around the rpm of moving 120-130 km/h.  Fuel economy starts dropping off right there.  So if I'm feeling cheap I keep it under 110 km/h.  At those speeds, for a nice comfortable pass I don't even need to gear down.  This is why I wish 6th gear was more spaced out, because I'd have no problem going down to 5th to pass.  My brother's Trans Am WS6 has a 6th gear that is more spaced I think.  But the V8 has so much torque at any RPM that it doesn't matter.

I’m not concerned with fuel economy because if $200 more a month on fuel puts me over the edge then I should have bought something else. I have an aftermarket exhaust that is 3-1/2” SS from the turbo back. This replaced all sound deadening OEM exhaust and shaved about 100 lbs. The spooling sound is magic to my ears.

I'm with you Snowy.  Fuel prices don't concern me and I use what I need to use.  As for 50kph in the tallest gear?  In the Porsche, I'm in either 2nd gear when at 50kph.  Sometimes 1st.

Even for sporty cars, efficiency is important to me.  However, I don't really care about how much I pay at the pump.

[mdxtasy]

Even for sporty cars, efficiency is important to me.  However, I don't really care about how much I pay at the pump.

Is the engine operating at top efficiency when it's being lugged around at 50kph while in 6th gear?

[dr_spock]

There is a bold typeface warning in my 924S's owner's handbook:  (paraphrasing) Don't shift gears under 3000 rpm; and they weren't kidding.  Probably due to the old 2 valve per cylinder technology.

My sister had back to back Saab turbos, both sticks, which I could never understand, and she was one bad lugger.  She sucked the energy right out of me when she drove: lug, lug, lug.  So exhausting to ride with drivers like her.  If her motor hit 3000 rpm just once a year it was a miracle.

Did she read somewhere to upshift earlier to save gas?   I have an old two valves per cylinder engine, the shifts feel much better at 3000 rpm or higher. 

I sat in the new Civic a few times and never noticed the brake handle digging into my leg.  I still don't like where the Honda engineers located it. 

[si]

Even for sporty cars, efficiency is important to me.  However, I don't really care about how much I pay at the pump.

Is the engine operating at top efficiency when it's being lugged around at 50kph while in 6th gear?

Who ever said the engine is being lugged?

If you were to floor it at this engine speed - of course yes.  But just having a 1 mm push on the gas pedal (DBW civics have a wide on/off gap on the throttle) surely does not.

I'd much rather hold a speed at 2000RPM, barely touching the throttle and keeping the engine calm, than holding 3000RPM and holding my right foot further probed in.