CD Article: 2008 Canadian Truck King Challenge

[articsteve]

I was taking a look at the videos on pickuptruck website and found this, that's pretty impressive: F-150 vs Tundra frame strength: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfE_XAk2mE&

 

First, those are Ford ppl.  Second, the Tundra frame is from a 06 (last gen).

If you really want a good laugh at desperation check out the "Tow Hooks" video and both "Bolt" videos. 

[Lou1919]

I've read several tests sponsored by manufacturers where journalists have been invited to attend. Several astute members of the press noted that these tests favored the specific brand that had set up the test. ie. Ford sponsored test - Fords faired better, Chev sponsored test - Chev faired better. The pickups run over the speed bumps is a brutal test for sure but do you know anyone that drives like that?? I find it poor that Toyota does not rate it's tailgates. Telling people to remove them is a pile of crap. Does Ford, Chev, or Dodge rate their tailgates? I've never removed my tailgate to load or unload. I don't think anyone does. I have seen bent and cracked tailgates on the "domestics" but this was because of severe abuse. The post "  The real test of a 1/2 ton  is determined after 6 years and 200K km.  We all know perfectly well between the 3 manufactures whose vehicles still have a second life left." I don't know of anyone who uses their trucks hard for work that get 200,000 km out of them . They are usually "beat to death" well before that figure. Everyone I know uses 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups for work.
CANFOR leases their trucks for only 100,00 km because they've found that pickups get too expensive to run because of mechanical breakdowns. They have started leasing 1/2 ton pickups and the guys who spend most of their time "in the bush" hate them because they don't hold up and don't have the ground clearance like 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups.

[Wolverine]

I was taking a look at the videos on pickuptruck website and found this, that's pretty impressive: F-150 vs Tundra frame strength: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfE_XAk2mE&

 

First, those are Ford ppl.  Second, the Tundra frame is from a 06 (last gen).

If you really want a good laugh at desperation check out the "Tow Hooks" video and both "Bolt" videos. 

I saw that about the bolts and tow hooks. Though I know that size isn't the most important feature of a bolt, I do agree that the position of the hooks on the Tundra's front bumper is not the best around.

Even being a last gen frame, that's a hell of a difference.

[articsteve]

I don't know of anyone who uses their trucks hard for work that get 200,000 km out of them . They are usually "beat to death" well before that figure. Everyone I know uses 3/4 ton and 1 ton pickups for work.

Why are we talking about bush trucks or 1/2 tons that are used for heavy industry when the norm is 3/4 or 1 ton for those applications.  

PPL; most 1/2 crew cabs are used for light recreational duty and light commercial duty which then double as home vehicles.  This is the market for the new Tundra and it will, like any Toyota, keep on ticking while the domestics fall apart due to undersized parts.  Slip under a Tundra and take a look at the size of the grease-able Ujoints, the drive shaft and how it's supported.  GMs are lucky to exceed 200K km without drive shaft replacement.

It going to be no different with the 1/2 tons as it is with the cars today.  A 6 year old Impala or Taurus with 200k km are essentially duds where the Camry is still running strong which one can actually certify and sell.

Agreed.  The Tundra tailgate is weak.  Everyone in the rural areas spotted that one the first day they arrived.  Just like the Tacoma; hard cardboard.      

[lou1919]

I agree with you that most people buy 1/2 tons more for personal and light industrial use. I was responding to a few posts where people were seeming to indicate that 1/2 ton "domestics" were better and would hold up better in industrial or heavy use. One post implied that he knew people in industry that hated the Toyota for it's ride on dirt roads and said the Ford's ride was superior. I was challanging his statement by stating that 3/4 and 1 ton crewcabs were the norm in the logging indutry around where I live. I mentioned 3/4 and 1 ton trucks again because of other posts where a person was talking about 1/2 tons for heavy use. Any truck "worked hard" will have a short life span. I doubt the 200,000 km claim for any truck worked hard. The new Tundra being just that "new" still has to prove itself in relation to long term reliability. I mentioned in an earlier post that brand loyalty is very strong in the pickup ranks and this is blatantly obvious in many of the posts. I am willing to give the Toyota tundra the opportunity to prove itself. I used to be brand loyal but then I grew up. I am not impressed with any of the "domestics" and am leaning towards the new Tundra. I have heard many people say you never buy a "new" model the first year out due to "bugs" being needed to be worked out. This may be the case with the new Tundra. Time will tell.

[airbalancer]

lou1919 why don't you sign up and tells where you live.

[lou1919]

Prince George, BC.

[articsteve]

I agree with you that most people buy 1/2 tons more for personal and light industrial use. I was responding to a few posts where people were seeming to indicate that 1/2 ton "domestics" were better and would hold up better in industrial or heavy use. One post implied that he knew people in industry that hated the Toyota for it's ride on dirt roads and said the Ford's ride was superior. I was challanging his statement by stating that 3/4 and 1 ton crewcabs were the norm in the logging indutry around where I live. I mentioned 3/4 and 1 ton trucks again because of other posts where a person was talking about 1/2 tons for heavy use

I understood that actually.   It was our friend Snowballs who has a h*rd on for a new GMC. 

Eventually Toyota will move into the 3/4 and 1 ton market.  Obviously will need a diesel first.

If Toyota Canada would match the others in the 0% financing they'd really move them.    No question the new Tundra has delivered a mega shock to the domestics.  May the market go to the best unit.    Currently the best power train goes to the Tundra.

 I have heard many people say you never buy a "new" model the first year out due to "bugs" being needed to be worked out. This may be the case with the new Tundra. Time will tell.

That is fact actually.  It can be said about anything with a piston in it; sleds, jet skis, outboards, ATVs; the list is endless. 

[lou1919]

Toyota doesn't deal on their vehicles like the "domestics" either. The price on the window sticker is what you pay. That seems to be the case at the dealers I've visited. If Toyota's reliability has fallen to the same level as the "domestics" then there is no justification for paying the higher price that Toyota wants for their products. I hope they fix the problems that have been surfacing. I would choose a Tundra as my next vehicle but the higher non-negotiable price and reliability problems are making me sqeamish.
It will be interesting to see how things play out if Toyota enters the 3/4 and 1 ton pickup market. The 2007 SEMA show has a "dually" Tundra with a 8 litre Hino diesel in it. (Hino is Toyota's heavy truck division) It looks more "factory" than a "one off" show truck. Check it out at truckblog dot com.(this site won't let me post the actual link as a guest) The big three "domestics" must be nervous.
I looked at one of the u-tube links allegedly showing "bed bounce". It seems to be more of what some web sites are refering to as "rumble strip" vibration. Apparently it is due to a problem with the torque converter in some pickups. I had a similar vibration in an F250 secondary to a bent drive shaft from a misadventure during a hunting trip. It was obvious that it wasn't coming from the pickup box.
I can't seem to be able to open the link showing the bent tailgate. I haven't seen any convincing photos yet. Just one with a small bend on the very edge of the tailgate. It looked like something had actually snagged the corner on the tailgate.

[lou1919]

I've noticed that most of the people posting opinions on this topic don't currently own/drive pickups. My personal vehicle has always been a pickup. I have never owned a Toyota truck but my friends whom own them swear by them. I currently drive a Ford Ranger extended cab 4x4. I've had a few small trucks. They are nice for off roading .I've owned 3/4 tons but never a 1/2 ton. When I got my 1st 3/4 ton (gas engine) I bought it instead of a 1/2 ton because I liked the extra ground clearance and slightly heavier duty chassis for off road use. I've driven a few 1/2 tons. I found the F150 supercrew a bit tail end happy on dirt roads or slippery conditions (it slid around alot more than what I would like). It was empty and in 2 wheel drive at the time. I don't like relying on 4 wheel drive in the winter. I find I am more cautious and have a better sense of how slippery the roads are in 2 wheel drive. I like having 4 wheel drive as a back up. The Chev 1/2 tons ride very nice. They don't seem to have much ground clearance.I haven't driven any Dodge pickups. I've driven quite a few Ford 1 ton diesels throught my part time job. I like the power and engine braking from the diesel engine in the winter. I can't realy justify owning anything bigger than a 1/2 ton. My wife was a bit intimidated by the size of the 3/4 ton I last owned. I drive a truck more for recreation. Packing dirt bikes, quads, bicycles, camping gear and 12 ft. aluminum  boat. With a young family I plan on getting a camper trailer which means moving up to a larger pickup , preferably a crewcab. What 1st hand pickup truck experience do the other participants in this forum have?

[Snowman]

I agree with you that most people buy 1/2 tons more for personal and light industrial use. I was responding to a few posts where people were seeming to indicate that 1/2 ton "domestics" were better and would hold up better in industrial or heavy use. One post implied that he knew people in industry that hated the Toyota for it's ride on dirt roads and said the Ford's ride was superior. I was challanging his statement by stating that 3/4 and 1 ton crewcabs were the norm in the logging indutry around where I live. I mentioned 3/4 and 1 ton trucks again because of other posts where a person was talking about 1/2 tons for heavy use. Any truck "worked hard" will have a short life span. I doubt the 200,000 km claim for any truck worked hard. The new Tundra being just that "new" still has to prove itself in relation to long term reliability. I mentioned in an earlier post that brand loyalty is very strong in the pickup ranks and this is blatantly obvious in many of the posts. I am willing to give the Toyota tundra the opportunity to prove itself. I used to be brand loyal but then I grew up. I am not impressed with any of the "domestics" and am leaning towards the new Tundra. I have heard many people say you never buy a "new" model the first year out due to "bugs" being needed to be worked out. This may be the case with the new Tundra. Time will tell.

I would hazard a guess that logging in Northern Ontario is different. I think the Boral Forest is a little different than the geography in BC.

A truck is not in my future plans but if one were I would go with what has worked for me in the past…a FORD.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I had a Ranger, a One Tonne Toyota and a F150 Pickup for work back in the early 1990s/late 1980s. The body on the Toyota had a bad case of the rust weevils. Other than that they all held up pretty well. All were retired with ~250 to 300k on them.

The rest of the company trucks were all domestics 1/2 tonnes and 1 tonnes. No real issues, but for some trouble prone Dodge trannies.

I left the aquaculture business in 94, and haven't needed a truck since. But if that changed it would more than likely be Ford again.

[bull44]

just one question,toyota have a nice truck ,y read toyota have probleme whit ,snaping camshafts,cracking tailgates,fulty torque converters,and consunmer report from usa change the way to test next year for quality and not use what the conpagnie did before,because of the poor quality from the tundra too not recomend a truck whit  so so quality..and i just whant to no wy canadien driver put this truck 2008 winner,explaine to me sorry for my english..th

[Wolverine]

just one question,toyota have a nice truck ,y read toyota have probleme whit ,snaping camshafts,cracking tailgates,fulty torque converters,and consunmer report from usa change the way to test next year for quality and not use what the conpagnie did before,because of the poor quality from the tundra too not recomend a truck whit  so so quality..and i just whant to no wy canadien driver put this truck 2008 winner,explaine to me sorry for my english..th

That's something I would also like to know.  Guess long term reliability and overall quality is something you can't measure in a contest like this, I mean, there's no time enough, so, for what it shows at first sight, Tundra seems to be the best choice... not mine tho.

Side note: i'm not a truck driver, never driven one, so my opinion is based only on things I've read on the internetzzzz, hehhehehe.

[articsteve]

Toyota doesn't deal on their vehicles like the "domestics" either. The price on the window sticker is what you pay. That seems to be the case at the dealers I've visited. If Toyota's reliability has fallen to the same level as the "domestics" then there is no justification for paying the higher price that Toyota wants for their products. I hope they fix the problems that have been surfacing. I would choose a Tundra as my next vehicle but the higher non-negotiable price and reliability problems are making me sqeamish.
It will be interesting to see how things play out if Toyota enters the 3/4 and 1 ton pickup market. The 2007 SEMA show has a "dually" Tundra with a 8 litre Hino diesel in it. (Hino is Toyota's heavy truck division) It looks more "factory" than a "one off" show truck. Check it out at truckblog dot com.(this site won't let me post the actual link as a guest) The big three "domestics" must be nervous.
I looked at one of the u-tube links allegedly showing "bed bounce". It seems to be more of what some web sites are refering to as "rumble strip" vibration. Apparently it is due to a problem with the torque converter in some pickups. I had a similar vibration in an F250 secondary to a bent drive shaft from a misadventure during a hunting trip. It was obvious that it wasn't coming from the pickup box.
I can't seem to be able to open the link showing the bent tailgate. I haven't seen any convincing photos yet. Just one with a small bend on the very edge of the tailgate. It looked like something had actually snagged the corner on the tailgate.

Toyota doesn't deal on their vehicles like the "domestics" either.


In BC where all prices for everything are high.  GTA and southwestern Ontario dealers are very competitive.  Nobody is paying list for the Tundra; any model.

I would choose a Tundra as my next vehicle but the higher non-negotiable price and reliability problems are making me squeamish.

This the thing    Less than one hundred bad cranks caught within weeks of production.  A real issue on some torque converters though. But the thing is they get covered and the issue has been identified and fixed.  Then there is the tailgate.  Nothing new there.  It is lighter than it should be, but heavier than the previous Tundra.  Me thinks that will change next model year.  So the problems are minimal and have been due to parts production failures which made it on some units.  So for the squeamish, don't buy first year runs.  I wouldn't  if it was my money.

I've owned 3/4 tons but never a 1/2 ton. When I got my 1st 3/4 ton (gas engine) I bought it instead of a 1/2 ton because I liked the extra ground clearance and slightly heavier duty chassis for off road use.

The current Tundra 1/2 ton, if your using a yardstick from 6 years ago, is essentially a 3/4 ton without the weight capacity because it certainly has the towing capacity and brakes that are larger than any 3/4 from 6 years ago.   At the very least it would be considered a heavy, "heavy half". 

I don't like relying on 4 wheel drive in the winter. I find I am more cautious and have a better sense of how slippery the roads are in 2 wheel drive. I like having 4 wheel drive as a back up.

You'd like the Tundra then.  Part-time 4 wheel drive and stability control.  Good for the wife.  I had a diesel auto 4x4 3/4 ton Silverado Suburban and the wife could not drive it safely.  You had to be looking way down the road when driving that pig.   

I've noticed that most of the people posting opinions on this topic don't currently own/drive pickups

I've own GMC, FORD and Dodge when I farmed but they were all 80s units so the comparison to now is impossible to make.  Pretty well all the same back then.  Basic and quite sh*t to spend anytime in.  The current models from all the big players are better than large cars were 5 years ago.   

I've driven 3 Toyotas in the last 2 years.  One was a loaded 06 Tundra crew, a 07 Tacoma and the new gen Tundra 4.7 when they first came out.  Apparently, I'm getting a new Crewmax so I'll post that pic when it comes.  Here are the two lastest ones.  The Tacoma's tailgate had to be replaced under warranty.  Was running ATVS up into it on ramps.  Got to the point is was so bent that we could not get the tailgate closed.  That was after 6 months.  I don't have a digital pic of the 06, but I'll scan it next time and show the huge difference between the two.

 

[lou1919]

What is your opinion in relation to what I've been seeing on the net about "box oscillation" or"box hop". It doen't make any sense to me. One u-tube home video I saw seemed to be a case of driveline vibration probably originating from the torque converter. Out of ballance wheels, bent rims, bent driveshafts all could cause similar problems. Considering all the talk about "rumble strip" vibration I think this is the same issue .  The Ford test track "speed bump" video and frame video's are probably confusing the matter and adding to the miss-information . A certain amount of frame flex is not neccessarily a bad thing.  The problem with the internet is that it is often impossible to assess the varacity,reliability,acuracy much of what one sees and/or reads. It's an impersonal place and one can't look a person in the eyes to see if they are being straight with you or just plain full of s--t. It's interesting to read about pricing in Ontario. Wasn't there a law suite that Toyota lost about their "uniformity of pricing" from dealer to dealer??

[rrocket]

FWIW, I had severe "rumble strip" vibration in a car I owned attributed to the torque converter.  The cure was to switch to a synthetic tranny fluid...and the problem went away...

[articsteve]

What is your opinion in relation to what I've been seeing on the net about "box oscillation" or"box hop".

I do not have one.  One has no idea what those "Ford" ppl did to both the Tundra and the Chevy.  Pardon my french, but Ford is all but f***ed.  If they are truly in such a spot that they need to leak those type of undocumented "tests" onto the net then boo hoo.  All I know is a Ford 150, once driven off the lot, drops like a stone in value.  Be prepared to keep it a long, long, time. 

Wasn't there a law suite that Toyota lost about their "uniformity of pricing" from dealer to dealer??

It was settled in 2004.  All western dealers, a few Ontario and Quebec dealers participated.  Essentially, Toyota Canada agreed not to price fix and not to punish dealers who refused to participate.  It didn't fly in the GTA and southwest Ontario where competition is heavy.  They didn't pay any fine.  The suit was brought by the (Liberal  ) Federal Government in Federal Court under section 61.

Section 61 - Prohibition of Resale Price Maintenance

“61.(1) No person who is engaged in the business of producing or supplying a product. . . or who has the exclusive rights and privileges conferred by a patent, trade-mark, copyright. . . shall, directly or indirectly, by agreement, threat, promise or any like means, attempt to influence upward, or to discourage the reduction of, the price at which any other person engaged in business in Canada supplies or offers to supply or advertises a product within Canada; or…”  “Product” is defined in the Competition Act to include a service.

In simpler English  ......

Merely suggesting a recommended price is not, on its own, an offence. In the words of section 61, there must be a suggestion of a resale price and an “agreement, threat, promise or any like means” to maintain that price.

However, manufacturers who make pricing suggestions should for their own protection, state clearly that their distributors are under no obligation to accept the suggested or recommended price.

In addition, when making a “suggestion” as to a sale price, the manufacturer, must not attach stated or unstated consequences to not following the suggestion. If they do imply a consequence of any sort, the offence is committed.

[Wolverine]

What is your opinion in relation to what I've been seeing on the net about "box oscillation" or"box hop".

I do not have one.  One has no idea what those "Ford" ppl did to both the Tundra and the Chevy.  Pardon my french, but Ford is all but f***ed.  If they are truly in such a spot that they need to leak those type of undocumented "tests" onto the net then boo hoo.  All I know is a Ford 150, once driven off the lot, drops like a stone in value.  Be prepared to keep it a long, long, time. 

So, you'r assuming that Ford actually did something to the Tundra to look bad on the test, that's the same that assuming they did nothing and that the Tundra actually behaves that way, in the end it's all suppositions. If they did something to the Tundra, why no to the GM, it looks good on the test. On the other hand, there are some videos on the internet made by a Toyota dealer where a Tundra pulls a Silverado, RAM and F-150 in a back to back test and one can easily note that the Tundra was in 4x4 mode while the others weren't.

[lou1919]

Any commercial advertising or manufacturer sponsored test is going to be tailored to make their product look better. I've read a few tests where journalists were invited to manufacture sponsored comparisons and several journalists noted that to nobody's surprise the host manufacturers vehicles faired better. You can easily set up a test to show your products strong points and your competitors weak points. That is why there is value to tests like the truck king challenge. The testing is impartial as possible. Some people suggest that these tests are inacurate as the manufactures send "ringers" to the tests. In other words they will send vehicles that have been carefully checked over and tweeked to perform at their best. Consumer report claims they randomly purchase their test vehicles from dealers around the country to prevent this possibility. One must try to collect as much information as possible from as many sources as possible before deciding upon purchasing a vehicle. All too often we have a tendancy to purchase vehicles more on emotion than logic. Studies show that men are way more prone to an emotional purchase of a vehicle than a female.