Author Topic: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -  (Read 3063 times)

Offline Ottawa

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Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« on: October 12, 2007, 11:31:34 pm »
Let's look at some facts...(I am not an economist)
Item 1: Economic angle
The Canadian Dollar is soaring, and neither the Bank of Canada nor the government (which does not regulate currency movements) can do anything about it without compromising the never far away risk of inflation. Increasing imports of relatively high end automobiles will cause an outflow of $ CAN and a demand for $ US ==> this will push our dollar lower and help the US dollar regain some of its value.

Item 2: Car manufacturers angle
Most of the folks importing cars are actually not hurthing the local high end market, as this category of folks would typically not buy in Canada due to their inability to afford the high local prices. The rise in value of the Canadian dollar has created a new class of individuals who now can spend X dollars to buy a BMW, Mercedes in the US instead of a Nissan Maxima or Honda Accord from the local dealer. A quick analysis might lead you to believe that the loss in vehicle sales for Honda and Toyota (some of which are made in Canada) would be detrimental to the Canadian economy....Well not so. If Honda , Toyota etc can manufacture a car in Canada in Canadian Dollars (remember that importing parts into Canada is now significantly cheaper due to dollar strengh) for X dollars, why would the same car be sold in US for 25 to 30% cheaper. The fact of the matter is that the Canadian market allowed this to happen and the big auto maker are using the first rule of business, buy low, sell high (well, you get my drift). in other words, a decrease in sales of 10 to 20% in Canada for Honda, Toyota etc would not be the kiss of death. It would only mean that they would have to adapt to the new reality and fewer people working in a factory in Oshawa would be replaced by more service people working at BMW, Mercedes etc. These kind of market shifts occur everyday and we should not be resiting them but rather embracing them and adapting to them. Have you checked how many jobs are being outsourced to various low cost countries in the IT area?  Well it is large (I know) and yet Canada is doing quiet well in the IT industry, thank you very much!

Item 3: The dealer angle
Canadian dealers for high end vehicles could actually benefit greatly from this bonanza. At first sight, you may conclude, why would they embrace this movement. So here it is: remember that buyers of high end cars in Canada are typically well off and 5 to 15K difference is not enough of an incentive for them to shop south of the border. They will continue to buy in Canada (as our friend ovr50 does) and the current market forces will keep the current dealers in business as they have done for years. But then what happens to the new class of buyers who now can afford a high end car in the US but not in Canada... Well these folks will need service locally and as everyone knows, the money is in providing services more than in selling the car in the first place (Look at what satellite providers and wireless operator do to attract customers...Hardware is usually free or almost free).
Mercedes, BMW, Lexus dealers in Canadian branches should pressure the head office of the their suppliers to insure that we get the warranty coverage we should be entitled to ==> Their business would grow significantly as they now provide services for a whole new niche of customers they would not have had in the first place anyway.

We can expand further but I'll leave it at that for now. The market and customer reaction will dictate how things will evolve, It is normal for most folks to resist change and continue to do what was always done. I wonder how the market will change when Chinese car makers will come in with Luxury cars at sub 20K.

Offline ovr50

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2007, 01:11:37 am »
Ottawa - "(as our friend ovr50 does)"

Look, ottawa, I have been staying out of your threads and not getting involved in your arguments; and, since you have NO knowledge of why I am buying in Canada as opposed to the US, I would appreciate it if you ceased your sarcastic comments about your assumptions as to my motives. You do NOT know whether 5 to 15K is enough inventive for me to shop south of the border or not. You know nothing about why I am buying in Canada - so lay off with the erroneous assumptions and accusations. Your otherwise semi-reasonable dissertation above was ruined by your erroneous assumptions of my motives, which, incidently, contribute exactly nothing to your comments. Leave the personal stuff out - since you are dead wrong on why my BMW is being bought in Canada.  :banghead: :thumbdown:

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Offline Trainman

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2007, 02:13:45 am »
Let's look at some facts...(I am not an economist)
....

Wow, that has some strange thoughts in it:

Quote
....Increasing imports of relatively high end automobiles will cause an outflow of $ CAN and a demand for $ US ==> this will push our dollar lower and help the US dollar regain some of its value....

Really?  You think that Canadians buying luxury cars in the US will alter currency values?    Care to explain this one a bit more, as I do not understand the relationship.


Quote
...a decrease in sales of 10 to 20% in Canada for Honda, Toyota etc would not be the kiss of death. It would only mean that they would have to adapt to the new reality and fewer people working in a factory in Oshawa would be replaced by more service people working at BMW, Mercedes etc....

So you are saying that there would be enough sales of high end luxury cars, and therefore more need for service people and those extra service people would offset employment  losses in the manufacturing/supplier side of relatively economical cars?  Sorry, I can not see this one either.  I need some more explanation on this one too please.


Quote
...as everyone knows, the money is in providing services more than in selling the car in the first place (Look at what satellite providers and wireless operator do to attract customers...Hardware is usually free or almost free)....

How can you compare a subscription service (like satellite and wireless) to buying a car?  This make no sense to me at all unless you are suggesting that cars be a subscription, and the car be provided "for free".  The only thing that comes close is leasing a car, but even then you do not get the hardware "for free".


Quote
We can expand further but I'll leave it at that for now....

Good plan, and I will follow your advise here.

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2007, 03:16:41 am »
Let's see.....thread title is to discuss the Canadian economy.....but in the first sentence I see "Let's look at some facts...(I am not an economist"

So I stopped.  It's like reading an automobile article in Forbes magazine. 

Offline inco

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2007, 06:47:45 am »
I'm sure the large proportion of people running to the states will make a big dent in our economy. There are roughly 1.6 million new cars sold annualy here. So if 1% went south to buy their next car - that would be 16,000 people and a saving of $10,000 on average or a grand total of $160 million saved that would be put back into our economy.

That's assuming everyone who saved that money went out and spent it, which is the opposite of why they went south in the first place - to save, not spend.

Now the dollars spent in the U.S. would help their economy but marginally and such a low volume it might not even be noticed. So if there is a trickle effect, how much do you think we would really gain. Not much.

As for more work for dealers here in service - zip, nada because people are going to buy the car regardless. There might be some who buy more car by the saving - say a BMW5 series instead of a 3, but regardless work would still be done, just for different cars, not the amount.

Offline Zombie

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2007, 01:39:56 pm »
I'm sure the large proportion of people running to the states will make a big dent in our economy. There are roughly 1.6 million new cars sold annualy here. So if 1% went south to buy their next car - that would be 16,000 people and a saving of $10,000 on average or a grand total of $160 million saved that would be put back into our economy.
That's assuming everyone who saved that money went out and spent it, which is the opposite of why they went south in the first place - to save, not spend.
You will have two camps who will cross border shop. Camp1 save money on the car they would have bought in Canada. Capm2 trade up buyers, buy a better car in the US for the same price as you would in Canada. Camp2 people wouldn't have any extra cash so they wouldn't spend more money but camp1 people would probably save some and spend some of the extra money from there reduced perchance. Normally the trend is that people will spend the extra money that they save, this is the theory the government and banks uses when they offer tax breaks and lower interest rates to kick start the economy.

As for more work for dealers here in service - zip, nada because people are going to buy the car regardless. There might be some who buy more car by the saving - say a BMW5 series instead of a 3, but regardless work would still be done, just for different cars, not the amount.
I agree with you but at the same time your not hurting the servicing department of the dealers since they are still servicing the car.
The only real losers are the purchasing portions of the local dealers they will loose a sale to an American dealer. Usually the sales guys goal is to make you pay as much as possible anyway so F him.

If the car is manufactured in Canada then great buying the car in Can or the US won't make much of a difference since a car was build in Canada and a car was sold in Canada (just to an American dealer). So in this case you are still supporting Canadian jobs. If the car isn't build in Canada, well buying it in the US won't change that so who cars ... (hahahaha that was a little joke)

The problem with a good Canadian economy is that it only benefits someone once you leave the country. It definitely hasn't effected the price of products, stuff still cost the same today as it did yesterday even if it wasn't made in Canada.
The companies doing the importing or manufacturing are making all the money. They definitely aren't passing the savings on to the consumer so why should I support the Canadian arm of company X if I feel that they are ripping me off.

And look ovr50 I not once mentioned that your buying an over priced Canadian model.
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Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2007, 02:17:15 pm »
Let's look at some facts...(I am not an economist)

Nor am I.  Yet.

Quote
Item 1: Economic angle
The Canadian Dollar is soaring, and neither the Bank of Canada nor the government (which does not regulate currency movements) can do anything about it without compromising the never far away risk of inflation. Increasing imports of relatively high end automobiles will cause an outflow of $ CAN and a demand for $ US ==> this will push our dollar lower and help the US dollar regain some of its value.

Right in theory, at least partly.  There are far more influences on the Canadian dollar (and the US dollar) then who's buying cars, though.  The strength of our dollar right now is due mostly to the increase in commodity prices, because we're a resource based economy and the rise in prices has really been a boon.  We're a net exporter of oil, for example, so when the price of oil goes up, our economic situation improves (generally speaking).  At any rate, the few hundred thousand dollars being changed to buy cars in the States is only a drop in the pond, and will have very little effect on the dollar value.  The Canadian Current Account and Capital/Financial Account (which measures imports/exports and money changing) measures in the billions of dollars.  Cross-border car shopping will not do much to move it.

Quote
Item 2: Car manufacturers angle
Most of the folks importing cars are actually not hurthing the local high end market, as this category of folks would typically not buy in Canada due to their inability to afford the high local prices. The rise in value of the Canadian dollar has created a new class of individuals who now can spend X dollars to buy a BMW, Mercedes in the US instead of a Nissan Maxima or Honda Accord from the local dealer.

Wrong.  The people buying in the States are people that can afford to buy a vehicle with cash, which is a very small subset of the population.  Something like 90% of new cars are leased or financed.  The majority of people buying from the States are people that would be shopping for similar vehicles at home, but can save tens of thousands by buying in the US.

Quote
A quick analysis might lead you to believe that the loss in vehicle sales for Honda and Toyota (some of which are made in Canada) would be detrimental to the Canadian economy....Well not so. If Honda , Toyota etc can manufacture a car in Canada in Canadian Dollars (remember that importing parts into Canada is now significantly cheaper due to dollar strengh) for X dollars, why would the same car be sold in US for 25 to 30% cheaper.

You ignore the fact that if Toyota sells 10% fewer cars, they also build 10% fewer cars.  The reduction in capacity means people in the plants lose jobs, which hurts our local economy.  Further, since most luxury marquees, which you claim are replacing those lost Toyota sales, are built outside Canada, there is no replacement of those jobs in our economy.  Furthermore, when a consumer buys a car in Canada, that money is injected into our own economy.  It's the trickle-down effect, and the best example is how an injection of $1 million by the government actually becomes far more than that in economical terms once it fully trickles down.  Example: the government pays $1 million to a firm, which then pays its workers.  Those workers spend their paychecks.  The total injection into the economy is the initial $1 million, plus the amount paid out to workers, plus whatever fraction they spend that is injected, etc.  There's a calculation for this called the Multiplier - if I recall correctly, in Canada it's equal to roughly 0.2, meaning that any injection of X into the local economy is actually 1.2X when the dust settles.  When a consumer buys in the States, that entire process is applied to their economy, not ours, and we miss out.

Quote
It would only mean that they would have to adapt to the new reality and fewer people working in a factory in Oshawa would be replaced by more service people working at BMW, Mercedes etc.

How so?  The number of cars on the road does not change in your theory, only the relative numbers of BMWs vs. Toyotas.  So the mechanics would shift from Toyota to BMW, perhaps, but the autoworkers in Oshawa would be out a job because BMWs are not built in Canada.

Quote
Canadian dealers for high end vehicles could actually benefit greatly from this bonanza. At first sight, you may conclude, why would they embrace this movement. So here it is: remember that buyers of high end cars in Canada are typically well off and 5 to 15K difference is not enough of an incentive for them to shop south of the border.

 ???  The well-off buyers are the only ones who can really afford to shop in the States, since one cannot finance or lease an American car.  It must be paid cash.  There might be a fraction of people who have a wad of cash at home and can suddenly spend it in the US, but they will be in the minority.  Simple fact is, most people cannot afford to pay cash, so the majority of people looking at buying from the States are the same people who are well off.

Again, your servicing example is meaningless, since there's nothing to say there will be more cars total on the road, only more BMWs than there were before and less Toyotas.

Quote
Mercedes, BMW, Lexus dealers in Canadian branches should pressure the head office of the their suppliers to insure that we get the warranty coverage we should be entitled to ==> Their business would grow significantly as they now provide services for a whole new niche of customers they would not have had in the first place anyway.

 ???  They would have more customers and less profits.  Basically this would amount to BMW of America getting the profit for selling the car, but BMW of Canada footing the bill for any warranty work.  Totally illogical.  Yes, once the cars are out of warranty BMW might have more customers in their service departments, but Toyota will have less.  And we're talking about the Canadian economy as a whole here, not just what's good for BMW.  Basically, what's good for BMW is bad for Toyota.


Offline safristi

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2007, 02:48:26 pm »
..can one get a Canadian bank loan and BUY a US car fer the cash on loan???..if so that is just the same as buying in Canada............... :think:
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Offline Cord

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2007, 03:06:56 pm »
..can one get a Canadian bank loan and BUY a US car fer the cash on loan???..if so that is just the same as buying in Canada............... :think:

Yes that would be the same. However, an unsecured personal bank loan is not the same as an auto loan. Of all the people that qualify for a secured auto loan, few would also qualify for an unsecured personal loan.

Offline safristi

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2007, 03:43:47 pm »
..secure it against yer house then??? ::)

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2007, 01:28:02 am »
..secure it against yer house then??? ::)

That would essentially be a mortgage.  But as Cord points out, not everyone qualifies for a line of credit like that.  Getting a bank loan is not quite the same as buying in Canada, because again the cash from the purchase is put into the US economy.  Yes, the purchaser will pay back the loan to the bank, but what the bank then does with it is less clear.  They might reinvest it, they might buy foreign capital, or any number of other things.

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2007, 02:51:01 am »
I wonder how the market will change when Chinese car makers will come in with Luxury cars at sub 20K.

I wish you luck if you are in one of those and were involved in an auto collision. Fancy leather won't save your hive.

Offline AVToller

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2007, 10:09:16 am »
I wonder how the market will change when Chinese car makers will come in with Luxury cars at sub 20K.

I wish you luck if you are in one of those and were involved in an auto collision. Fancy leather won't save your hive.

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Offline sailor723

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2007, 10:13:59 am »
I wonder how the market will change when Chinese car makers will come in with Luxury cars at sub 20K.

I wish you luck if you are in one of those and were involved in an auto collision. Fancy leather won't save your hive.

I suspect it might be like the early days of the Korean cars in the 80's. The Stellar seemed like a nice car for a great price until the pieces started falling off and parts started failing ;D

I wonder if the Chinese will be smarter and wait until their quality is up to NA standards or if they'll rush in to the market and try and get sales strictly on price the way Hyundai did. It's taken Hyundai's image nearly 25 years to recover and I know people who still regard them as "junk"
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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2007, 02:03:29 pm »
 bee hive yerself Avt......yer honey is ovr dew................ :o :stick: :bang: sing MELON COLLIE baby..... :-\

Offline Arhidia

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2007, 06:10:13 pm »
I was in Buffalo last friday buying my WRX and stopped to eat at a restaurant. The waitress told me the low US $ has been great for their economy. Windsor, Niagara Falls and other border cities will suffer economically because of this.
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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2007, 07:49:50 pm »
What is most amusing about our high Canadian dollar is the people in close proximity to the border flocking to the US to save a few bucks will be the ones losing their jobs because of it.

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2007, 04:30:41 pm »
(I am not an economist)

Count yourself lucky because everything I remember from that course at university was that it was all about assumptions.
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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2007, 09:50:47 pm »
Count yourself lucky because everything I remember from that course at university was that it was all about assumptions.

 :rofl:  That it is.  As they say, economists have successfully predicted nine out of the last five recessions.

The fact of the matter is that economic prediction is a very difficult science, and far from perfect because there are so many variables.  But we have become quite proficient in economic analysis, and understand a lot of things about how and why the economy operates.

We don't know what'll happen tomorrow, but we'll be able to tell you why we were wrong!

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Re: Why importing from US is good for the Canadian Economy -
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2007, 09:55:38 pm »
Count yourself lucky because everything I remember from that course at university was that it was all about assumptions.

 :rofl:  That it is.  As they say, economists have successfully predicted nine out of the last five recessions.

 :rofl: :rofl2: