Author Topic: Naked Streets = No signage  (Read 3301 times)

Offline carburator

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Naked Streets = No signage
« on: October 04, 2007, 07:55:10 am »
Anyone else hear that a very influential engineer is recommending that Toronto go without any street signs. This has been proven to make streets safer, and pedestrians accidents have been reduced.

Offline tpl

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2007, 07:56:54 am »
yes I heard this and it has been tried in Germany? or was it Holland?

The streets still have names so they are not totally naked but no stop signs/give way signs etc etc.

A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.

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Offline carburator

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2007, 07:59:54 am »
I just heard about this on CBC coming in to work this a.m. Hans Monderman from Holland is an engineer.

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_14623.aspx   City TV story..

http://www.goodmagazine.com/section/Features/decongestion 

cbc from 2004 radio story...

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDCC-1-69-1754-12100/life_society/road_safety/
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 08:05:14 am by carburator »

Offline safristi

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 09:16:13 am »
..it woz Holland...who care is a trike/bike sideswipes yer SUV :stick:..it's a variation of the tried and true Asian/India methods..let the traffic flow..swarm..ride up the sidewalk kind of thingie..requires co_operation in the extreme...a few dick_headsians could /will? spoil it for the many.....
THERE IS NO CURE FOR "LOTUS"......ONLY TREATMENT.....

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2007, 11:39:22 am »
Yes I heard this and it has been tried in Germany?

Not tried, but actually in use in Germany...has been for as long as I can remember.

In residential areas (and some others) there are no four-way stops. You approach the intersection at a few clicks (faster if you have sight distance) and proceed if clear. If traffic comes along at your right, they have the right of way.

Nobody barrels through intersections.
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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2007, 11:43:53 am »
***snip***
Nobody barrels through intersections.


Ya lets get it right and follow a good example. Not the method safristi is worried about.

I have also seen this on  a few residential  streets in Vancouver some years ago. It sure beats sitting at a stop sign early Sunday morning with not even a pigeon in sight anywhere.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 11:45:46 am by carburator »

Offline gottarondo

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2007, 12:01:49 pm »
Very interesting; thanks for posting this.  It's an excellent analysis by the engineer on the subject of people interacting with each other that could be transposed onto many urban problems where big brother/big rules/impersonal/agency-type solutions are the norm.  There might also be a spillover effect in that by forcing people to interact, you increase their capacity to do so and thus breed a more civil society. 

It is, however, as Saf notes, a system that is dependent on there being a common behavioural norm to start with.  I have a friend in Toronto who is fond of noting the differences in how immigrants from various places navigate lineups at bus and streetcar stops.  (She's not so fond of some of the navigation techniques!)  Bullies who are willing to resort to behaviours outside the norm are able to get ahead, and they aren't bullied in turn by the rest of the crowd because the rest are bound by the same norm that leads them to line up politely to be polite to the bully. 

I see from the longer of the two articles that only about 80% of signs and lights have been removed, and that it is noted that it is more workable in smaller centres. 

Vancouver has increasingly, or maybe totally, gone to stop signs or even roundabouts on residential intersections; a real shame.  People have gotten noticeably stupider both in and out of their cars in the interim.  Not sure there's a linear relationship, but a correlation worth noting. 

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2007, 01:54:08 pm »
In residential areas (and some others) there are no four-way stops. You approach the intersection at a few clicks (faster if you have sight distance) and proceed if clear. If traffic comes along at your right, they have the right of way.

Nobody barrels through intersections.

When biking, that is how I treat our four way stops already  ;D

When driving, since almost every corner in some neighbourhoods have stop signs I get really nervous if I don't see one and slow down anyway.
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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2007, 02:02:40 pm »

When biking, that is how I treat our four way stops already  ;D

When driving, since almost every corner in some neighbourhoods have stop signs I get really nervous if I don't see one and slow down anyway.


You see this is exactly the way it is suppose to work. I remember slowing down in Vancouver in those areas with no stop signs.

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2007, 02:36:06 pm »
Doesn't Germany have one of those 3-day comprehensive driving tests vs. our 15 min. round the block joke?

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2007, 03:01:13 pm »
Doesn't Germany have one of those 3-day comprehensive driving tests vs. our 15 min. round the block joke?

That's another great point, we just might have to stop giving out those drivers licenses to anyone :popo:

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2007, 03:03:59 pm »
In residential areas (and some others) there are no four-way stops. You approach the intersection at a few clicks (faster if you have sight distance) and proceed if clear. If traffic comes along at your right, they have the right of way.

Nobody barrels through intersections.

When biking, that is how I treat our four way stops already  ;D


:nono:  :shake: 

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2007, 03:10:38 pm »
There might also be a spillover effect in that by forcing people to interact, you increase their capacity to do so and thus breed a more civil society. 

It is, however, a system that is dependent on there being a common behavioural norm to start with.

And there is a world of difference between North American and European driving attitutes...experienced first hand.

Offline No H2O

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2007, 03:12:16 pm »
Doesn't Germany have one of those 3-day comprehensive driving tests vs. our 15 min. round the block joke?

You forgot to add the $2000+ course cost.

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2007, 03:28:49 pm »
Doesn't Germany have one of those 3-day comprehensive driving tests vs. our 15 min. round the block joke?

You forgot to add the $2000+ course cost.

But less accidents by well educated drivers, including education about how to get along with people,  will translate into lower insurance costs....so its worth it  ;D
« Last Edit: October 04, 2007, 03:31:22 pm by carburator »

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2007, 03:55:42 pm »
I dont see how removing stop signs will make it safer for pedestrians. At least when most of us see a stop we pretend to stop. If there is no stop there is nothing to stop idiots from going 60-70 km/h. Some of course will remember to yield to a vehicle on the right, but there is no way you can in an instant stop for a cyclist or a jogging pedestrian. Why cant those "influentials" stay home?
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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2007, 04:01:27 pm »
This whole thing sounds to me like theoretical communism, which only works if people genuinely care about each other.  In my experience, people don't, especially once you're out of the small-town environment.
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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2007, 04:06:29 pm »
In residential areas (and some others) there are no four-way stops. You approach the intersection at a few clicks (faster if you have sight distance) and proceed if clear. If traffic comes along at your right, they have the right of way.

Nobody barrels through intersections.

When biking, that is how I treat our four way stops already  ;D


:nono:  :shake: 

Oh come on...its not like I don't look both ways first. :P

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2007, 07:31:40 pm »
Doesn't Germany have one of those 3-day comprehensive driving tests vs. our 15 min. round the block joke?

You forgot to add the $2000+ course cost.

But less accidents by well educated drivers, including education about how to get along with people, will translate into lower insurance costs....so its worth it  ;D

Hey, you are preaching to the wrong guy. Thirty-plus years accident and insurance claim free driving in as many years: cars, motorcycles and aircraft.

Change attitudes? Maybe less red meat in the diets and throwing the TV out the front door might help.  :rofl2:

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Re: Naked Streets = No signage
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2007, 07:51:45 pm »
Hey, you are preaching to the wrong guy. Thirty-plus years accident and insurance claim free driving in as many years: cars, motorcycles and aircraft.

Change attitudes? Maybe less red meat in the diets and throwing the TV out the front door might help.  :rofl2:

Yeah, because Bavaria is full of vegetarians...