Diesel not the answer for North America

[wing]

Whoa!  You have an E85 station?  We don't even have one in Ottawa it was closed down!

[Titanium48]

Lutz knows full what his problem is.    GM cannot make a decent gas 4 cylinder motor/powertrain; name one     So how are they ever going to develop a competitive diesel 4 cylinder for the NA market.  They can't build a hybrid and they will fail at small diesels.  Recently sold their share in Isuzu that developed the Duramax to whom 

TOYOTA.   

How about the Saturn 1.9L?  Sure, it's outdated now, but in it's day the Saturn S-series was right up there with the Honda Civic and Toyota Tercel in the fuel economy race.  At the same time, their joint venture with Suzuki lead to North America's most fuel efficient car of the 1990s in the Swift/Metro/Firefly.  I've owned both and found them to be quite reliable to 200,000 km and beyond.  GM has delivered decent small cars in the past, I don't know why they couldn't do it again if they really wanted to.

[tpl]

Whoa!  You have an E85 station?  We don't even have one in Ottawa it was closed down!

yes totally weird. Its on hwy 24 ( Guelph to Cambridge) sells gas, diesel, e85, propane, jungle juice, lng and for all I know also has biodiesel.

[G35X]

tpl wrote:
“Still I want my diesel BMW with 180 bhp and 300 lb ft rather than  230 bhp and 220 lb/ft.”

Before I am sold on diesel, I need a little bit more info…

1) Since it’s the power that moves and accelerates a car, can you get as much fun with the 180 bhp diesel engine as with the 230 bhp gas engine?  I think the maximum power determines the terminal speed and the rate of acceleration of a car. Therefore, the more power, the faster a car moves.   Do you get as much entertainment by driving a BMW w/330d(?) as driving your 330Xi?  It is fun to rev up a gas engine to above 6000 rpm and keep it above 3000 through the gears always.  Long time ago I was told it wasn’t much fun driving BMW’s 2002e with an “efficiency” gas engine whose maxmum rpm was 4500.

2) If torque is so important why not increase it by rpm reduction mechanically (low gear ratio for gas engine). Torque is just a factor in the equation to get power, and does not have time in its dimensions. When we tighten tire wheel nuts we measure the torque when the wrench is not moving (no time factor).  You can get all kinds of torque in lowered speed.

3) When I drove an MB 300TD, it was very difficult to start in cold weather, and after it did it stalled when tried to go up a hill with cold engine.  Also, I was told never to run out of fuel because an empty fuel tank had to be pressurized to get the car going again.  Any improvement in these areas?

4) How do you process the pollutants?  Do you burn off the trapped particulate (mostly carbon) emitting carbon dioxide into the air?  If NOX is cleaned by the use of urea, where to you get it?  In an emergency do we discharge ourselves into the urea canister?

Thank you!

[Leviathan]

Drove by a sign offering biodiesel the other day. 

[tpl]

tpl wrote:
“Still I want my diesel BMW with 180 bhp and 300 lb ft rather than  230 bhp and 220 lb/ft.”

Before I am sold on diesel, I need a little bit more info…

1) Since it’s the power that moves and accelerates a car, can you get as much fun with the 180 bhp diesel engine as with the 230 bhp gas engine?  I think the maximum power determines the terminal speed and the rate of acceleration of a car. Therefore, the more power, the faster a car moves.   Do you get as much entertainment by driving a BMW w/330d(?) as driving your 330Xi?  It is fun to rev up a gas engine to above 6000 rpm and keep it above 3000 through the gears always.  Long time ago I was told it wasn’t much fun driving BMW’s 2002e with an “efficiency” gas engine whose maxmum rpm was 4500.

2) If torque is so important why not increase it by rpm reduction mechanically (low gear ratio for gas engine). Torque is just a factor in the equation to get power, and does not have time in its dimensions. When we tighten tire wheel nuts we measure the torque when the wrench is not moving (no time factor).  You can get all kinds of torque in lowered speed.

3) When I drove an MB 300TD, it was very difficult to start in cold weather, and after it did it stalled when tried to go up a hill with cold engine.  Also, I was told never to run out of fuel because an empty fuel tank had to be pressurized to get the car going again.  Any improvement in these areas?

4) How do you process the pollutants?  Do you burn off the trapped particulate (mostly carbon) emitting carbon dioxide into the air?  If NOX is cleaned by the use of urea, where to you get it?  In an emergency do we discharge ourselves into the urea canister?

Thank you!

1 & 2 . see this linky
http://vettenet.org/torquehp.html
I am not a 0-60 freak. I do like turbocharged engines. I am past the age where a 6000 rpm screamer is exciting. I want a really short  80-120 km/h time and a turbo diesel with a flat torque curve sure provides that......... at 45 mpg

3. Yes  modern oils and batteries, computer controlled injection devices. I am not sure what happens in a modern car diesel if you run right out.  It would not surprise me  if the computer had a mode of running the fuel pump to get everything purged and ready to go... probably taking a whole 10 seconds to do it. I dunno.

4.    I believe the urea load lasts between oil changes and of course has an idiot light.

[jpd]

2008 VW Jetta TDI spotted in the US!
Posted Sep 23rd 2006 8:32AM by John Neff
Filed under: Sedans/Saloons, Green, Volkswagen



We feel bad for Volkswagen. It deserves credit for quietly selling diesel-powered vehicles in the U.S. and for decades offering customers the benefits of an extra long range and ample torque. Finally the feds wise up and regulate high-polluting sulfur right out of our diesel fuel, and in the process make it impossible for VW to sell its current lineup of TDI models that don't meet the new emissions standards. So for 2007 there is no Jetta, Rabbit or Beetle TDI models being sold by Volkswagen.

But here it is! The 2008 Jetta TDI, spotted at the AltWheels festival in Boston. In order to meet the new emissions standards in the U.S., Volkswagen developed a new 2.0-liter diesel engine that is clean enough for 50-state certification without the use of urea injection, which is no small feat. It does so by extensively treating exhaust gases with catalysts and particulate filters. The engine develops 140 horsepower and a robust 240 ft-lbs. of twist.

The demonstration model was also decidedly upmarket with a nav system in the dash, leather-like seats, GTI-style projector headlights and rather large upgraded multi-spoke wheels. Exciting stuff as we're eager for VW to get back into the business of leading the diesel charge in the U.S.

[Source: TDIclub]
Tags: Beetle, diesel, Golf, Jetta, Rabbit, TDI

[tpl]

"Finally the feds wise up and regulate high-polluting sulfur right out of our diesel fuel, and in the process make it impossible for VW to sell its current lineup of TDI models that don't meet the new emissions standards."

I am not sure the two events are connected.    USA and Canada spent some years negotiating the timing of getting the sulphur out of fuels.  Gas lost its sulphur a couple of years back and diesel this last fall.
The EPA decided on a new set of car emission standards last year for 2007 vehicles. Canada went along with those standards.

The "old" VW TDI would probably run better on the low sulphur diesel that it did before but that engine could not meet the new mandated NOx standards.

Anyway... the sooner we see the new VW engine the better. I hope they have a familiy of those engines so they can put the next size up in the Passat and introduce a Polo sized vehicle with a slightly smaller one

[ggweci]

Good news about the sighting of the '08 Jetta diesel.

Anyone know if VW will have a Rabbit version here for '08?

[sirAQUAMAN64]

VW has always sold Diesel engined cars at a premium compared to their gasoline counterparts. Those have sold well.

Problem is that VW used to charge $1,800 or so for the TDI option... but the new emission requirements add another $1,500 - 2,000 to that. Take a look at the Duramax option on a GM pickup or the Power Stroke on the F-Series. Huge buckaroo premium over and above what they were without the DPFilter, granted they're large engines.

I do not want a diesel with UREA Ad-Blue, and prefer one without a particulate trap but don't think that will disappear and it's not as big an issue.

For those reasons, the 2.0L VW TDI and the Honda engines hold the most allure to me. I am 85% sure my next car will be diesel again, I loved the engine because of the power delivery and the fuel economy couldn't be beat no matter how I drove it.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

Used diesels command higher prices
Arlena Sawyers
Automotive News
July 23, 2007 - 12:01 am   

Buyers are bidding up prices of used vehicles with fuel-saving diesel engines, industry analysts say.

A diesel engine added about $1,000 to the roughly $50,000 sticker price of a new 2005 Mercedes E320 CDI sedan. Two years later, that option fetches $2,500 more at wholesale auctions than the gasoline-powered engine on the same model, the Black Book used-vehicle price guide reports.

"As American consumers, we're looking to get better fuel economy, but we still want that full-sized vehicle," says Black Book managing editor Ricky Beggs. "The technology is so much better today, and the versatility and the accessibility to get diesel fuel are there."

The Power Information Network estimates that U.S. consumers will buy more than 500,000 vehicles with diesel engines this year. The network predicts that figure will more than double by 2011.

Except for a few thousand Mercedes cars and Jeep Grand Cherokee SUVs, all diesels sold as new in the United States this year will be in heavy-duty pickups.
 


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Premium diesel
Diesel engines are not only holding but increasing their value as an option on used vehicles. These are calculations of the percentage of value retained by diesel engines on 2-year-old vehicles, compared with when the 2005 models were sold as new.
2005 Model % of Retained value
Mercedes E320 CDI 250%
VW Jetta GLS 164%
Ford F-250 127%
VW New Beetle GLS 121%
Chevrolet Silverado 117%
Dodge Ram 2500 104%
Jeep Liberty 82%
Source: Black Book 


 

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Gaining acceptance

But several automakers plan to introduce diesel-powered cars and light trucks to the United States by 2010. Strong resale values for used diesels signal consumer interest and acceptance, Beggs told Automotive News.

Of six 2005 models reviewed by Black Book, five showed increases in the value of their diesel engines in the used-car market. The sixth, the 2005 Jeep Liberty, has a diesel engine valued at $2,200 - 82 percent of its original sticker price, Black Book says.

John Blair, CEO of Automotive Lease Guide, agrees that diesel engines are appreciating but warns that could change. As automakers introduce more diesel-powered cars, he says, the growing supply of used diesel cars will ease prices.

"In the future, the value is going to be lower, given the greater volume of diesels being produced and the increased competition with hybrids," says Blair, whose company sets residual values for the auto industry.

Volkswagen of America Inc. says it will reintroduce diesel engines in its Jetta and other models next year. VW did not offer diesel engines in most 2007 models, while it modified its technology to meet U.S. emissions rules for new low-sulfur diesel fuel.

Supply and demand

Terrence Wynne, director of ana-lytical services at NADA Analytical Services Group, says VW's actions reduced the supply of new diesel-powered vehicles. That helped drive up prices of used diesels, he says.

An optional diesel engine added $1,220 to the base price of a new 2005 Jetta GLS, Black Book says. The diesel now commands roughly a $2,000 price premium for the same car as a used vehicle.

Diesels also are holding their own in the market for used heavy-duty trucks.

Automotive Lease Guide's Blair says a diesel engine typically adds $6,000 to the sticker price of a new full-sized pickup. After 36 months, he estimates, the diesel engines will keep 60 percent of their value as an option, while the trucks themselves will retain only 47 percent of their value.

Glenn Romines, a Ford-Lincoln-Mercury dealer in Houston, Mo., says he sells 7 to 10 used diesel pickups a month. This month, he says, he paid $23,000 for a 2002 Ford F-350 - about $2,000 more than its guidebook wholesale value.

Romines says he sold the truck for $24,500 - roughly $1,500 more than its prevailing retail price. He says: "It was a good deal for everybody."

[Diesel Advocate]

I agree with other comments here that car makers should import more diesel cars (that obviously comply with emissions standards) to North America and let the buyers decide.

As you know, here in Europe well over the half the cars sold are diesel.  Sure, usually you have to pay a bit more for one but the extra MPG (miles per gallon), cheaper servicing costs, and lower depreciation easily make a diesel car a worthy option.

I think when consumers are shown and test drive a quality diesel engined car many will be suprised at just how inaudible the engines are and mightily impressed with the huge volumes of torque diesel engines produce.

Part of the problem is that many in North America think of a noisy, smokey truck when they think of diesel, when in truth technology has moved on so much that a diesel is often impossible to distinguish from a petrol/gas car unless you take a look at the spec. badge on the boot/trunk.

M.

cheaper servicing costs

Don't agree with you there, but generally I look forward to them.  However, many parts of Canada will be just to cold for easy operation. 

I do agree that Diesels are cheaper to service. A Diesel vehicle only has to be serviced every 16000km and not every 4-6k on a petrol equivelent.

As for Canada being to cold for easy operation, where did you get that from? Diesels operate just fine in the cold. Remember diesels are sold in many parts of Europe such as Iceland, Finland, Sweden etc which also have cold, cold climates.

I've missed driving a diesel since moving to Canada 6 years ago. The Focus 1.8 TDCi 118 and VW Golf TD-GTi were the last cars I drove a couple of years ago when I went back in England.

[Snowman]

I agree with other comments here that car makers should import more diesel cars (that obviously comply with emissions standards) to North America and let the buyers decide.

As you know, here in Europe well over the half the cars sold are diesel.  Sure, usually you have to pay a bit more for one but the extra MPG (miles per gallon), cheaper servicing costs, and lower depreciation easily make a diesel car a worthy option.

I think when consumers are shown and test drive a quality diesel engined car many will be suprised at just how inaudible the engines are and mightily impressed with the huge volumes of torque diesel engines produce.

Part of the problem is that many in North America think of a noisy, smokey truck when they think of diesel, when in truth technology has moved on so much that a diesel is often impossible to distinguish from a petrol/gas car unless you take a look at the spec. badge on the boot/trunk.

M.

cheaper servicing costs

Don't agree with you there, but generally I look forward to them.  However, many parts of Canada will be just to cold for easy operation. 

I do agree that Diesels are cheaper to service. A Diesel vehicle only has to be serviced every 16000km and not every 4-6k on a petrol equivelent.

As for Canada being to cold for easy operation, where did you get that from? Diesels operate just fine in the cold. Remember diesels are sold in many parts of Europe such as Iceland, Finland, Sweden etc which also have cold, cold climates.

I've missed driving a diesel since moving to Canada 6 years ago. The Focus 1.8 TDCi 118 and VW Golf TD-GTi were the last cars I drove a couple of years ago when I went back in England.

I have lived in the “real” north most of my life and diesel engines are problematic once you go below the -15 to -20 degrees C range. I have known people who have keep them running all night to avoid start up problems in the morning.

[random006]

I have lived in the “real” north most of my life and diesel engines are problematic once you go below the -15 to -20 degrees C range. I have known people who have keep them running all night to avoid start up problems in the morning.

So what if they are not suitable in the far north?  In most of Canada - and all of the continental US + Hawaii - diesels make perfect sense.  It is quite possible that even the latest diesel technology might find it difficult in or near the Arctic Circle but down in the southern half of the country where the vast majority of Canadians live, they have proven themselves to be more than adequate.  Besides, haven't they improved the performance of diesel engines in cold weather?

[gotak]

Topgear ran some diesel Toyota Trucks to the far north. I think there are solutions, additives, around diesel freezing up in the cold. I also read rumors that the new TDI will have an electric heater for the interior so you don't suffer from the low heat output in the diesel in the winter.

[tpl]

I know that even in moderate climates ( down to -10C say) that stations change from #2 to #1 diesel for the winter... lower gel point, more cetanes whatever the difference is.  I cannot imagine that there is a not a #0 diesel or some number that stays liquid and working at -40


I just checked.  It seems ( from Exxon US site ) that they don't necessarily change over to #1  but I also see ads for additives to reduce the "cloud point" and wax formation point down to -37 or so.
Like this one

http://www.dieselservices.com/html/bioarmor/dsg_polarmax/index.cfm

[No H2O]

The basic problem, according to Lutz, has to do with increasingly tough vehicle emissions standards in the United States.

Thats strange, because the North American vs European emissions chart I saw recently comparing requirements from present day and into the future showed European emission standards being more stringent and requiring those numbers be met sooner than the US.

Sounds like some anti-diesel group paid that guy off to make those statements.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

I also read rumors that the new TDI will have an electric heater for the interior so you don't suffer from the low heat output in the diesel in the winter.

The 2006 Jetta TDI for North America has this I believe, but comes deactivated. Need to VAG-COM it to work. At least that's what I've read a few places.

[random006]

I also read rumors that the new TDI will have an electric heater for the interior so you don't suffer from the low heat output in the diesel in the winter.

The 2006 Jetta TDI for North America has this I believe, but comes deactivated. Need to VAG-COM it to work. At least that's what I've read a few places.

VAG-COM

Voice Activated Guide command?
Variably Annoying Gadget complaint?
Viciously Audible Gremlin communication?
 

[tpl]

http://www.ross-tech.com/    are the VAg-COM people.

Aftermarket software for rep[programming VW/Audi cars   Nice piece of work it is as well. I had a copy when I had an A4.