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Author Topic: Diesel not the answer for North America  (Read 6591 times)
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« on: July 14, 2007, 08:46:25 pm »

By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- In a video posted to his official General Motors blog Thursday, GM vice chairman Bob Lutz took pains to point out that fuel-efficient diesel engines, popular in Europe, will not provide an easy an easy answer to America's petroleum dependence.
"Do not assume that the diesel engine is a panacea and is going to make everyone get to a fleet of 36 miles per gallon," Lutz says in the video.
The popular notion Lutz is trying to refute is that diesels, already popular in Europe, offer the fuel economy benefits of gasoline/electric hybrid vehicles but without all the added cost and complexity of gasoline/electric hybrid technology.
The problem, according to Lutz, is that making diesel engines work for the American passenger vehicle market, which is very different from Europe's, will require adding technology. That means adding complexity and cost, just like hybrids.
What's worse, along with adding cost and complexity, is that these technologies will also reduce a diesel vehicle's fuel economy, taking away the very reason for turning to diesel in the first place, said Lutz.
The basic problem, according to Lutz, has to do with increasingly tough vehicle emissions standards in the United States. In most of the United States, these standards are already much more stringent than in Europe and they're getting tougher. In some states, those that follow California's emissions standards, these rules are tougher still.
It's not that diesels can't meet those standards. Diesel ordinarily produces much more smog-forming pollution than gasoline engines, though. Meeting these standards will mean lots of complex and expensive emissions control technologies. That technology will add cost, said Lutz, as much as $2,800 per vehicle. Diesels already cost more than gasoline-powered vehicles because the engines themselves, built tough to withstand the high compression diesel relies on, are more expensive to begin with. Lutz put the current cost premium of a diesel engine at about $2,000.
That kind of added cost would take away much of the incentive for consumers to buy diesel vehicles. It would take a long time to make that kind of money back through fuel savings.
"Are buyers of smaller cars actually going to pay a $4,000 to $5,000 premium to get a diesel engine, when the tougher the emissions [standards] you have to meet, the more the fuel efficiency savings[compared to a gasoline engine] shrinks?" Lutz says in the video.
As more emissions control technology is added, the fuel efficiency savings of diesel engines could be cut to as little as 12 to 15 percent over gasoline engines, Lutz estimated. And that's compared to current gasoline engines, not taking into account technologies now being investigated that could make gasoline engines about as efficient as diesels.
Some of what Lutz says is in his blog video is contradicted by diesel proponents as well as the the publicly announced plans of other carmakers and, to some extent, by GM's own publicly announced plans.
For example, GM's planned-production diesel engines, to be sold in all 50 states including those that use stricter California emissions standards, would probably still be about 25 percent more fuel-efficient than a similar gasoline engine, said Charlie Freese, executive director for diesel technology at GM. (Freese had not seen Lutz's video and so could not be certain exactly what Lutz had in mind when mentioning a possible reduction in fuel efficiency to 15 percent of gasoline's.)
Also, Lutz says in the video blog entry that emissions technology that will make diesels widely available in the United States will have to involve injecting a chemical called urea into the exhaust stream. (In addition to adding cost, that would add a maintenance hassle - refilling the urea tank - for car owners.) Urea injection can reduce emissions of smog-forming pollutants by about 90 percent.
Even if that technology is used, Lutz says in the video, it will still not allow the vehicles to be sold in all 50 states, including those with California-style emissions standards.
Honda, however, has already announced it will begin selling a 4-cylinder diesel-powered car in 2009. It will be available in all states and it will not use urea injection, the company has said. Mercedes-Benz has also said it would begin selling diesel SUVs in all 50 states.
GM has already announced plans to introduce a 4.5-liter diesel engine that will be available in the company's light-duty trucks and SUVs, including the Hummer H2, in late 2009. That engine will use urea injection and will be available in all 50 states, a GM spokeswoman said later.
A smaller V6 engine mentioned by Lutz in the video will not be used in the United States, as currently planned, the GM spokeswoman said. It will be used in the Cadillac CTS sold in Europe. 
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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2007, 08:48:41 pm »

I'm annoyed that GM is continually whining about CAFE and emissions standards.  Deal with it, Mr. Lutz.  Adapt or die.

I'm also curious about his claim that cleaner diesels are less efficient than those used in Europe.  I was not aware that the technology in MB's Blutec diesels hurt their fuel economy.
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2007, 09:09:28 pm »

The standards are higher in the US then in Europe so the technology needed to help the pollution problems from them is much more stringent as well as the weight of it also. Lutz is saying what all the other companies would if they had to do a film like what he did. They all face the same hurdles but not all of them are useing Diesel engines in their lineups as yet as much as some are.  Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2007, 09:18:51 pm »

Lutz misses one point.  The Congress can change the EPA's emission rules just as it can change the CAFE and anything else.  the Congress can even change the rule that permits California to have its own emission standards.  That is what Lutz should be aiming for.
 Ain't democracy wonderful.
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2007, 10:09:56 pm »

I have my doubts Pres Bush would allow that to happen as he would ticking off his favorite Neice and her husband if they did. Taking any power away from Arnold would be a mistake.  Smiley
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2007, 10:21:44 pm »

It would certainly be a tough sell if a 1.3 CDI is fit to an Aveo with a $2k premium. However, I am sure there is a market for a loaded D-4D Corolla or a Focus 2.0 TDCi. It's not only being cheap at the pump, but it's about superior performance AND being cheap at the pump.

It is entirely up to the marketing department to promote the diesel. Bob says it right. It is kind of hard to justify the extra cost of a clean common rail diesel in an economy car already withouh too much profit margin. Besides, the upside on mileage isn't that great. (CR reported 41 mpg for a 5 spd stick MK IV Golf TDI, but so could a stick Echo, almost) However, I still believe diesel is still worth a good look for premium compacts, mid-range family sedan/wagons and SUVs.




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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2007, 11:04:44 pm »

It would certainly be a tough sell if a 1.3 CDI is fit to an Aveo with a $2k premium. However, I am sure there is a market for a loaded D-4D Corolla or a Focus 2.0 TDCi. It's not only being cheap at the pump, but it's about superior performance AND being cheap at the pump.

Exactly.  The $2000 premium would be hard to swallow on an Aveo, but would be a pretty easy sell on a Saturn Astra.
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2007, 10:17:03 am »

VW has always sold Diesel engined cars at a premium compared to their gasoline counterparts. Those have sold well.
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2007, 10:32:03 am »

Put 100.000 on the market and let the CUSTOMER decide...they did that wif HYBRIDS
 and now there are near a MILLION of them out there (Even though a lot of us denegrate their actual AVANTAGE???,,folk buy them).......call it GREEN DIESEL...and KOLOR it Like ST PADDY's DAY BEER...they will be lineing up at the GAS BAR!!!! Grin..




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« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2007, 11:53:57 am »

Honda's diesel is coming soon, within the next year or so. Possibly in the Accord and CR-V.

As for VW they had to clean up there dirty engine, no '07 production Jetta diesel. I wonder what's in store for VW's '08 model?
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« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2007, 12:27:11 pm »

VW's engine was not "dirty" until the EPA in the USA changed their emission standards and made no allowance for the fact that the emission profile of diesels is different from that of gasoline engines.  The irony is that we just get clean diesel fuel, over the objections of the trucking industry, after years of argument and then new diesels are effectively outlawed for a year or so, leaving all the dinosaur buses and big trucks still smoking away... sounds like a big oil or Big three  conspiracy to me  Tin Foil Head
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« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2007, 08:55:38 pm »

Lutz knows full what his problem is.  Roll Eyes  GM cannot make a decent gas 4 cylinder motor/powertrain; name one  Huh   So how are they ever going to develop a competitive diesel 4 cylinder for the NA market.  They can't build a hybrid and they will fail at small diesels.  Recently sold their share in Isuzu that developed the Duramax to whom  Huh

TOYOTA.    Tongue
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« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2007, 12:15:01 pm »

I agree with other comments here that car makers should import more diesel cars (that obviously comply with emissions standards) to North America and let the buyers decide.

As you know, here in Europe well over the half the cars sold are diesel.  Sure, usually you have to pay a bit more for one but the extra MPG (miles per gallon), cheaper servicing costs, and lower depreciation easily make a diesel car a worthy option.

I think when consumers are shown and test drive a quality diesel engined car many will be suprised at just how inaudible the engines are and mightily impressed with the huge volumes of torque diesel engines produce.

Part of the problem is that many in North America think of a noisy, smokey truck when they think of diesel, when in truth technology has moved on so much that a diesel is often impossible to distinguish from a petrol/gas car unless you take a look at the spec. badge on the boot/trunk.

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« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2007, 12:44:22 pm »

cheaper servicing costs

Don't agree with you there, but generally I look forward to them.  However, many parts of Canada will be just to cold for easy operation. 
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« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2007, 09:20:52 pm »

Some of the new diesel engines are just as clean burning or possibly even cleaner then many of the Gas engines of to-day. VW for example has a well built engine that burns exceptionally clean with the new low sulphur fuels. Lots of power and torque and really decent fuel milage as well.  Smiley
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« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2007, 09:25:23 pm »

Biodiesel burns incredibly clean, if I recall correctly.
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2007, 12:51:39 am »

I'm skeptical of lutz's comments but there are other important reasons that will limit the market for diesel cars in North America besides engine technology. Shifting a significant percentage of the Car fleet to diesel would require a lot of infrastructure investment for production and distribution of diesel to meet the increased fuel demand. Such a shift would be neither quick nor cheap.
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2007, 01:06:40 am »

I'm skeptical of lutz's comments but there are other important reasons that will limit the market for diesel cars in North America besides engine technology. Shifting a significant percentage of the Car fleet to diesel would require a lot of infrastructure investment for production and distribution of diesel to meet the increased fuel demand. Such a shift would be neither quick nor cheap.

There's already a very substantial diesel network in North America thanks to long haul truckers.  I don't think diesel would be that hard to implement, because there's at least some diesel available everywhere to tide people over while the mainstream gas stations add more diesel pumps.
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2007, 02:25:45 am »

The 4 stations closest to my house sell gasoline only. The closest station that sells diesel has only 1 diesel pump vs. 7 or 8 gas pumps.

The issue is not that there is a total lack of diesel infrastructure it's that adapting the current distribution system (and increasing the amount of diesel production capacity) to make diesel as widely available as gasoline would not be cheap. It's not impossible by any means, but cost would be significant and the cost would likely be passed on to the consumer.

I'm not trying to argue that diesel-engined cars should not be sold here. I'd rather have the 114 hp, 184 lb ft diesel engine sold in Europe than the 148 hp, 142 lb ft gas engine in my RAV4. I'm just trying to point out another cost of a market shift towards diesel, beyond that of the car itself.

I expect that most people think about fuel supply only in terms of what their gas gage says. There is about $10,000,000,000,000 worth of infrastructure upstream of the retail gas pump. That infrastructure was not created overnight and the way it is configured now creates legacy issues that won't be overcome overnight. Change will come, it always does, but it will be incremental.


Another tidbit to note is that the US imports refined gasoline in addition to crude oil because domestic refinery capacity is not sufficient to meet gasoline demand. The supply chain for all of these fuels is very tight and will be for years to come.

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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2007, 06:54:05 am »

 I Agree Wolfe.  Getting enough diesel into regular gas stations to supply even just a few % of the cars on the road will be a big project.  When I lived in downtown TO only one station sold diesel, drove past it again yesterday and it is now a hole in the ground ( I suspect yet more condos rather than an explosion  Wink  ) Here in G, surrounded by farms about 1/2 the stations sell diesel and we even have the other E85 ststion in Ontario ( outside Ottawa).

Still I want my diesel BMW with 180 bhp and 300 lb ft  rather than  230 bhp and 220 lb/ft.
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