Dealership: Wrong Diagnosis AFTER JOB IS COMPLETE - Vehicle Not Fixed

[bizzy928]

I am looking for your input into a recent situation I ran into at our local Toyota Dealership.

Vehicle:
1992 Toyota Previa LE 2WD
340 000km

Situation:
Took the van in because it would not start. Service Manager called back and said it was the starter. It would be $450+tax for parts and labour. We said go ahead. They call back, saying the starter is in, but the cables from the battery to the starter are corroded and need to be replaced. It will be an additional $300 for parts and $200 in labour.

My Problem:
If the problem was diagnosed correctly in the beginning, starter AND cables then I would not have decided to fix the vehicle. Now after the fact, the dealer is basically pushing an additional $500 onto me. Currently, since I already invested in the starter, it would make sense for me to go ahead with the cables and spend another $500 and taxes... But its the principle that bothers me. I trust my dealership to diagnose correctly, and because that wasn't done properly, I now have to pay extra.

As a customer, what leverage do I have? What should I be expecting? At the least, I think the dealership should give me a discount on the parts for the cables, and not charge me labour for the second job. Am I being reasonable?

The service manager will call me back on Monday when he is in. Looking for your experiences, thanks very much in advance!

[dorin]

Sometimes it's hard to diagnose things and, as frustrating as it is, it doesn't necessarily seem that the dealership definitely screwed up.  However, they did screw you in this situation and if it's a good dealership then it's reasonable to expect some consideration.

If it were me, I would push for parts at cost and free labour on the wiring.

[ovr50]

It's not at all clear to me that the dealership did mess up. It may have been impossible to tell if there was a problem with the battery cables until the starter was repaired. I doubt there is enough info here based on what we are told to make a call whether a mistake was made or not. I would ask the service shop why they couldn't tell the cables were a problem initially, but beyond a reasonable explanation there, you may have to accept the situation as it is. Don't know exactly.

[si]

I think it's fair to at least ask the service manager about it...

If they unjustly blow you off, click here https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx

[Cord]

I'm no technician but I highly doubt that a no-start diagnosis is cut and dried when the car in question is 15 years old with 340,000km. It really is a no win situation for the dealer. If they spend hours pinpointing the problems on every old beater, the owners will be complaining about paying for the diagnosis.

[barrie1]

Usually rotten cables can be seen quite easily by eye and they are the most expensive cables for any make I have ever heard of as well as most expensive labour charges for replacing them as well. As these cables are not very long and the Battery is under the hood as well as the starter i just can't see how they justify those prices at all. I feel a 2nd opinion is needed as the repair price is way too high. 

[bizzy928]

Thanks very much for all of your comments. I understand that everything is variable, and the vehicle is old. However, from a customers stand point I paid for a service of diagnostic and repair, but in the end they didn't pull through.

As for the prices, the service manager quoted $120 for each cable, and 1 hour labour for each cable. They are obviously inflated labour times... but I don't expect any less from the dealer .

Cord, I beg to differ. The dealer always has a chance to win. All they have to do is keep their customers satisfied, and revenues will flow in from there. I remember reading it costs 5x to get a new customer compared to keeping one.

The dealership is one of the largest in terms of volume in Canada, plus we have been a customer for over 10 years, purchasing and servicing many vehicles from them. I am confident we will work something out. Its always nice to have other opinions and information.

Thanks very much. Will keep you updated!

[airbalancer]

Labour rates usually goes by the book rate ( forgot the name)
Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose

Their labour rate is more then BMW's $115/ hr

$500 to replace cables, $240 for cable, $260 for labour for 2 hours, $130 /hr
Do you get a free loaner, and your car wash for that rate

[bizzy928]

I should clarify I was quoted:

$120 per cable
$60 for the terminals (battery)
2 hours labour (1 for each cable) @ $100/hr

[maritime_storm]

To re-iterate what Barrie said, they are the most expensive battery cables known to man. I work in this industry, battery cables come with terminals already on them, our expensive one at work is $14.99, it's 6' long, somethings ripe with that quote.

[torque]

Just to clarify here. You say no start, but was the complaint it would not roll over?
I know it likely seems the same, but to me, a no start is an engine that rolls over, but does not start.

To properly diagnose when it will not roll over, the battey should be tested and a voltage loss test done on battery cables, relays, solenoid etc. Nothing really different form car to car, so it does not matter the age, you still should follow the basics. And that should be VERY basic for a technician. It was not a back yard shop or freind you went to. Was there or was ther not enough power getting to the starter?

It is also important that you relay the information to us properly. *if* what you are saying is they replaced the starter, and it still did not start afterwards, this is not one of those things that are hard to find, if that is the case, they did not do a properly diagnose it. And they owe you for something.

But, did it start ok and they are *recomending* you do the other work to prevent problems down the road?

Some vehicles do have some odd battery cables for various reasons and in the end it is far easier to replace with OE cables. But most can be replaced with off the shelf cables that are a LOT cheaper. I am into heavy duty vehicles and can not comment on this specific vehicle as I am not familiar with it.

If they did not diagnose it properly, and they do not want to come good for their mistake, take them to court, you do have a case. It is not a case of being older, harder to diagnose. It's simple, was enough power going to the starter, yes or no? If no, correct the problem 1st before replacing the starter.

Something does sound fishy here, not judging you, but either you are not relaying the info right, or you have a problem with your garage.

I hope thing work out for you.

[airbalancer]

I should clarify I was quoted:

$120 per cable
$60 for the terminals (battery)
2 hours labour (1 for each cable) @ $100/hr

But do they wash the car

[bizzy928]

When I took it to the dealership, I said it would not start. When I turned the key, it would just click. The lights would also come on at full power so it was not the battery (we replaced that in March 07).

Unfortunately, I do not know how they diagnosed it. They had the vehicle in their possession, and considering how large the dealership is, they probably had all of the tools and equipment.

They DID replace the starter. Once the starter was in, the van would STILL not start. They told us that after they put in the starter, the van would not start, and they had to jump it (from underneath) manually, thus bypassing the battery cables (i have no idea how that is done...).

I think the reason why the battery cables are so expensive, is because this van is mid-engined. The battery is in the front driver side of the nose, and the engine is under the front seats, this naturally needs a longer battery cable length -- that and its an OEM part.

I understand that its hard for everyone to get a full story, with only myself relaying the information. But I do appreciate all of the comments!

Should get a call tomorrow morning!

[bizzy928]

But do they wash the car

If I ask they will probably do so, but I don't think they will bother.

[inco]

Given the fact that the motor is set under the seats, you do have to make allowances for the cables. The price quoted for the labour I would question though.

Given too the work done, the age of the vehicle, the cost seems way out of proportion to the value of the vehicle, but on the bright side they had the parts! Something to be said for that and thank him etc. but ask mybe to give you a break on those labour costs.

If you don't ask you don't gets. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Just to clarify here. You say no start, but was the complaint it would not roll over?
I know it likely seems the same, but to me, a no start is an engine that rolls over, but does not start.

To properly diagnose when it will not roll over, the battey should be tested and a voltage loss test done on battery cables, relays, solenoid etc. Nothing really different form car to car, so it does not matter the age, you still should follow the basics. And that should be VERY basic for a technician. It was not a back yard shop or freind you went to. Was there or was ther not enough power getting to the starter?

It is also important that you relay the information to us properly. *if* what you are saying is they replaced the starter, and it still did not start afterwards, this is not one of those things that are hard to find, if that is the case, they did not do a properly diagnose it. And they owe you for something.

But, did it start ok and they are *recomending* you do the other work to prevent problems down the road?

Some vehicles do have some odd battery cables for various reasons and in the end it is far easier to replace with OE cables. But most can be replaced with off the shelf cables that are a LOT cheaper. I am into heavy duty vehicles and can not comment on this specific vehicle as I am not familiar with it.

If they did not diagnose it properly, and they do not want to come good for their mistake, take them to court, you do have a case. It is not a case of being older, harder to diagnose. It's simple, was enough power going to the starter, yes or no? If no, correct the problem 1st before replacing the starter.

Something does sound fishy here, not judging you, but either you are not relaying the info right, or you have a problem with your garage.

I hope thing work out for you.

I agree with torque. There is a common way of diagnosing starter issues regardless of age or make. Replacing the starter first is not the normal way of going, unless they are trying to pad the bill.

The Previa was an odd duck as far as engine location and layout. Still seems pretty expensive for just replacing cables.

[PJungnitsch]

They DID replace the starter. Once the starter was in, the van would STILL not start. They told us that after they put in the starter, the van would not start, and they had to jump it (from underneath) manually, thus bypassing the battery cables (i have no idea how that is done...).

Interesting, because normally when you jump a starter like that you are bypassing the ignition switch (and it's associated long and windy electrical path) not the main battery to starter cables.

I've wired in bypass switches (push button start, yay!) in older vehicles for that very same reason.

Hopefully they know what they are doing and are not just randomly replacing parts until the problem is fixed.

[articsteve]

The dealership is one of the largest in terms of volume in Canada

If they are one of the largest, say in the top 5, that service department must be pulling in a fortune based on the what I've read so far.

15 year old vans with 360K do better at small independant garages not dealerships @ $100 plus per hour.  An honest independant would have made some cables up and that van would have been on the road for $150. tax in.

 

[barrie1]

Irregardless of which type of terminal on the battery the ends should be no more then around $5.00 each and the cable can be made up from a roll of the proper wire. Most Pro-street racing cars have the batteries in the trunk and the cables run from under the hood to the rear and for a lot less then what the dealership has qouted you to begin with. A trip to a small independeant garage will save you a considerable amount of money I feel and the work will be done correctly with the right materials as well. 

[mar1990]

I agree with the last couple of posts. 

I have never been in a Previa, let alone work on one, but I read somewhere (CD maybe?) that indy mechanics pass them up as they are very awkward to to work on.

Looks like the "factory trained" technician took a gamble that it was the starter, and went ahead and replaced it without doing the proper tests.  Unfortunately you lost...

So, bizzy did you get the call yet?