CD Article: 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid

[CD_Editor]

Today's Test Drive:

The high price of gas and the threat of global warming is making hybrid cars more relevant in today's car market, says Editor-in-chief, Greg Wilson.  Plus, government rebates are making them more affordable.
   
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[Eric Green]

I'm not impressed with hybrids- overly complex drivetrain; unspoken embedded carbon in manufacturing; future battery disposal issues, etc. Especially compared to a small, fuel-efficient, gasoline-powered car like the Civic.

That said, Honda has a brilliant series of Eurodiesels- one of which (a manual Accord diesel wagon) was on display at the Transport Canada booth at the TO AutoShow last year. Apparently, the Honda diesel does not use the BlueTec emission technology.

I questioned Honda as when I might buy a Honda diesel wagon to replace out Volvo wagon, and was met with the ususal corporate bumpf- "not acceptable to NA markets; excessive certification costs". I call BS- I reckon Honda is missing the boat in not supplying at least the Canadian market with such vehicles.

[Thinking Out Loud]

I recently read that Honda threw in the towel on the Accord Hybrid due to disappointing sales - especially compared to the Camry Hybrid or Prius.

For the amount of money Honda blew in developing the Accord-H, they could have commited a fraction to importing their known diesel technology and still made money. 

Are the other manufacturers blind to the line ups at Volkswagen for TDI's (despite their hit and miss reliability)?

I never thought Honda, a manufacturer of innovation, would answer 'how high?" to Toyota's call of "JUMP!" on hybrids as the single future of reduced fuel consumption.

Gottal love the 1,000 KMs on a tank of gas VW's ad department came up with - as simple and to the point as the Beetle ads of the 1950's and 60's.

[CSH]

So a Hybrid CIVIC will cost $26,250 - 4000 = 22,250 in Ontario after all the tax rebated.
A CIVIC LX auto costs $21,830 and a EX Auto costs 23,630
While it dosent have the sunroof and the rear disc brakes of the EX it has climate control which EX dosent.

So even if you do not care about the environment but care about your pocket and are in the market for a fully loaded CIVIC type of a car, i think Hybrid is the way to go..,.

[2hondas1BMW]

Diesel Accords coming soon! (2008-2009). 

[Yves]

  He wake up hybrids are too complex too expensive and even if you save fuel how much energy it takes to mine the metal process it and build the battery pack plus mine doesn't do good on the environment.

  I drive a Saturn and last week i average 6.2L/100 KM driving normally not in economy mode and i'm sure many car like a corolla can do the same.  I own a Escort for 10 years and my average summertime was 6.5L/100 KM my friend Corolla average 6.4L/100 Km driving a mixed cycle.

  And then if the battery pack is dead after 8 years what are you gonna do spend around 8000$ to replace the battery or scrap the car.  If you choose the second option then you remove a car on the road who can last 3 or 4 more years.

  Plus over the years any battery pack will slowly loose it's power the fuel consumption will increase.  Anyway if you think it's good go for it but honda and Toyota put so much money on those car they will do anything they can do to tell it's a miracle.

  Some people on this forum beleive in diesel and that's the way to go for the same economy a diesel engine last longer have fewer mobile parts and today are clean so prayer on your knees the preacher Honda and Toyota will try to convert you and sing Alléluia (remember Johnestown)

[Arctic_White]

  He wake up hybrids are too complex too expensive and even if you save fuel how much energy it takes to mine the metal process it and build the battery pack plus mine doesn't do good on the environment.

  I drive a Saturn and last week i average 6.2L/100 KM driving normally not in economy mode and i'm sure many car like a corolla can do the same.  I own a Escort for 10 years and my average summertime was 6.5L/100 KM my friend Corolla average 6.4L/100 Km driving a mixed cycle.

  And then if the battery pack is dead after 8 years what are you gonna do spend around 8000$ to replace the battery or scrap the car.  If you choose the second option then you remove a car on the road who can last 3 or 4 more years.

  Plus over the years any battery pack will slowly loose it's power the fuel consumption will increase.  Anyway if you think it's good go for it but honda and Toyota put so much money on those car they will do anything they can do to tell it's a miracle.

  Some people on this forum beleive in diesel and that's the way to go for the same economy a diesel engine last longer have fewer mobile parts and today are clean so prayer on your knees the preacher Honda and Toyota will try to convert you and sing Alléluia (remember Johnestown)

Why would you say that battery will have to be replaced after 8 years?

Hybrid cars in North America have been out since late 90's, and I have yet to hear a case where the car's battery had to be replaced.

 

[H-IMA]

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[Snowman]

These forums are a great way to judge the level of knowledge and acceptance the general public has about hybrids.  Heck we can even judge the press can't we?

This article was far better written and done, than what Jill McIntosh did for the 2006 model.  But despite that observation, neither authors were able to even come close to baselining themselves to a typical hybrid owner.  Sorry.

What do I mean with this?

Most automotive reviewers get the keys to a car and their first thought is "let's see what this baby can do".  Right from the onset they are ready to apply the same type of driving routine and expectations that they usually applied to all other cars.  What is wrong with that?

Quite a bit.

Today's economy Hybrids (which the Accord and Lexus are not) are symbols of frugality and environmental consciouness.  Most folks who buy one are not just doing it for the lower fuel consumption, they are also doing it for the lowest pollution scores than any other vehicle in North America (except for the Toyota Prius, of course).  These new owners get in the car, learn about it, and go about extracting maximum benefit out of the car by driving by the instruments. Clearly, this is the last thing in the mind of an automotive reviewer which is why they report "poorer than advertized" mileage on the economy hybrids.

On average, most Honda civic hybrid owners get far better fuel economy that.  The thousands of hybrid owners who enter their fuel mileage into www.greenhybrid.com and www.cleanmpg.com are proof of that.  Heck, I even post my mileage there too and my wife on her own Civic hybrid does consistently better that the CD reviewers.   

Now, are these types of articles informative then?  Yes, they are certainly good.  They help popularize the hybrid platforms.  But they also help to mis-represent the true potential and capabilities of the car, particularly by failing tap into their proper use and long term potentials.  What potentials am I talking about?

Let's look at mine:
-I get 3.8-4.2 l/100km (currently) driving in the city in 10km commutes on my Civic hybrid. 3.4-4.0 l/100km or better in the highway.
-Longer service schedules... my engine oil was changed at 12,000 km via the built in maintenance minder.
-Negligible brake pad wear...  And overall lowest mechanical wear.
-NiMH Battery pack is designed to last the life of the car (unlike some ignorant assertions to the opposite in this forum).  I can provide historical proof for the incredulous.
-Hybrids have higher reliability ratings than other vehicles including those gas-only vehicles manufactured by the same company - which represents a greater piece of mind.

Oh, and before I forget.  The Civic Hybrid will only produce a 14 second 0-100km/h IF and only if, the battery state of charge is too depleted to provide the accelleration the car is being asked to do.  Most auto reviewers drive the car under a severe battery of tests and then report on the values of these tests without taking that into account (Car and Driver and others did that).

Fortunately, a few publications have considered the normal driving regimen that this type of car was designed to be in, and published the 0-60MPH results in two sets:  One for a lower state of charge and the other for a higher (normal driving) state of charge.  As a result they've clocked the 2006 and 2007 Civic hybrid at 11.5s to 12s.

Here's a little proof of that.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/showthread.php?t=13616

By the way, in my home we only have hybrids now.  There's no way we're going back, which is pretty consistent with the views of anyone who actually owns and drives one. 

You'll never get an opinion like this from a reviewer.


MS

Thanks for the information; I would like to see the historical data you have on battery life and disposal. Conservation is a state of mind that must be reflected in driving habits as well as vehicle purchases. This may take a few generations to become the norm.

[H-IMA]

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[airbalancer]

what would your winter mileage like?

[Arctic_White]

These forums are a great way to judge the level of knowledge and acceptance the general public has about hybrids.  Heck we can even judge the press can't we?

This article was far better written and done, than what Jill McIntosh did for the 2006 model.  But despite that observation, neither authors were able to even come close to baselining themselves to a typical hybrid owner.  Sorry.

What do I mean with this?

Most automotive reviewers get the keys to a car and their first thought is "let's see what this baby can do".  Right from the onset they are ready to apply the same type of driving routine and expectations that they usually applied to all other cars.  What is wrong with that?

Quite a bit.

Today's economy Hybrids (which the Accord and Lexus are not) are symbols of frugality and environmental consciouness.  Most folks who buy one are not just doing it for the lower fuel consumption, they are also doing it for the lowest pollution scores than any other vehicle in North America (except for the Toyota Prius, of course).  These new owners get in the car, learn about it, and go about extracting maximum benefit out of the car by driving by the instruments. Clearly, this is the last thing in the mind of an automotive reviewer which is why they report "poorer than advertized" mileage on the economy hybrids.

On average, most Honda civic hybrid owners get far better fuel economy that.  The thousands of hybrid owners who enter their fuel mileage into www.greenhybrid.com and www.cleanmpg.com are proof of that.  Heck, I even post my mileage there too and my wife on her own Civic hybrid does consistently better that the CD reviewers.   

Now, are these types of articles informative then?  Yes, they are certainly good.  They help popularize the hybrid platforms.  But they also help to mis-represent the true potential and capabilities of the car, particularly by failing tap into their proper use and long term potentials.  What potentials am I talking about?

Let's look at mine:
-I get 3.8-4.2 l/100km (currently) driving in the city in 10km commutes on my Civic hybrid. 3.4-4.0 l/100km or better in the highway.
-Longer service schedules... my engine oil was changed at 12,000 km via the built in maintenance minder.
-Negligible brake pad wear...  And overall lowest mechanical wear.
-NiMH Battery pack is designed to last the life of the car (unlike some ignorant assertions to the opposite in this forum).  I can provide historical proof for the incredulous.
-Hybrids have higher reliability ratings than other vehicles including those gas-only vehicles manufactured by the same company - which represents a greater piece of mind.

Oh, and before I forget.  The Civic Hybrid will only produce a 14 second 0-100km/h IF and only if, the battery state of charge is too depleted to provide the accelleration the car is being asked to do.  Most auto reviewers drive the car under a severe battery of tests and then report on the values of these tests without taking that into account (Car and Driver and others did that).

Fortunately, a few publications have considered the normal driving regimen that this type of car was designed to be in, and published the 0-60MPH results in two sets:  One for a lower state of charge and the other for a higher (normal driving) state of charge.  As a result they've clocked the 2006 and 2007 Civic hybrid at 11.5s to 12s.

Here's a little proof of that.
http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/showthread.php?t=13616

By the way, in my home we only have hybrids now.  There's no way we're going back, which is pretty consistent with the views of anyone who actually owns and drives one. 

You'll never get an opinion like this from a reviewer.


MS

Thanks for a very informative post.

I'd buy a Civic Hybrid in a heart-beat were it offered in a 5-speed manual transmission.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

What's the total energy cost of producing a hybrid Civic versus a diesel Civic?

As for performance and fuel economy, what you're saying is that if you drive like a granny with the battery in its optimum state of charge, fuel economy and performance might actually meet expectations. Not exactly real world conditions then.

I can get 5.9-6L/100km with my utterly conventional Vibe by rigorously sticking to the speed limit, avoiding the notorious "jack rabbit starts" and coasting through stops instead of hitting the brakes. The fact of the matter is that I don't drive that way. And I wouldn't in a hybrid either, so the claimed fuel economy wouldn't apply to me. I'm much more interested in the fuel economy numbers that I'd get. On that score, city driving excepted, hybrids fail to impress.


 

[airbalancer]

What's the total energy cost of producing a hybrid Civic versus a diesel Civic?

As for performance and fuel economy, what you're saying is that if you drive like a granny with the battery in its optimum sate of charge, fuel economy and performance might actually meet expectations. Not exactly real world conditions then.

I can get 5.9-6L/100km with my utterly conventional Vibe by rigorously sticking to the speed limit, avoiding the notorious "jack rabbit starts" and coasting through stops instead of hitting the brakes. The fact of the matter is that I don't drive that way. And I wouldn't in a hybrid either, so the claimed fuel economy wouldn't apply to me. I'm much more interested in the fuel economy numbers that I'd get. On that score, city driving excepted, hybrids fail to impress.

But since you are always away from home a tank in the Vibe must last a long time
Was the question how long a tank last or L/100km

[Sir Osis of Liver]

But since you are always away from home a tank in the Vibe must last a long time
Was the question how long a tank last or L/100km

Quiet you!

[H-IMA]

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[H-IMA]

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[H-IMA]

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[H-IMA]

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[airbalancer]

"The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the manufacturer"

I think most people think a cars should last longer then 200,000 miles