CD Article: 2007 Honda Civic Hybrid

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[Sir Osis of Liver]

1. I was not talking about the Hummer study. I was talking about the Civic diesel.

2. Producing electric motor controllers and battery packs is very energy intensive.

3. Electric motor controllers are, by and large, not recyclable.

4. The extra energy inputs required to make a diesel engine over a gasoline engine are marginal.

5. Very few auto technicians are competent in repairing hybrid components. There is a poster on this site that is living with that nightmare with his Honda Insight.

6. Civic hybrids only return high fuel mileage in stop and go city driving. Conventional gasoline engines can match their highway mileage. Diesels beat it.

7. The warranty on the Prius battery pack is 8 years. That's about the average age of a Canadian car. How many of them will be willing to entertain replacing battery packs?

8. The battery pack performance will degrade over time even with the excellent battery charging system Toyota has implemented. I deal with industrial UPS systems and inverters a lot. Best charging systems you can get. The fact is batteries degrade with use. Replacement batteries are usually scheduled every 10 years in these systems.

9. If stop and go city driving is all you do, public transportation is the more environmental choice.

10. The sales increases in the US can be attributed to discounted leases and tax rebates. Until these were implemented sales had plateaued.

11. Last I heard the Toyota Prius, Honda Civic, Honda Accord, and Ford Escape hybrids were money losers. I haven't heard anything about the Lexus or Camry hybrids. Considering the engineering required and limited production runs, I'd be surprised if they faired better.

Hybrids are an interesting technical exercise but little else. The gains in fuel economy are marginal in real world driving, even by using special driving techniques. Diesel technology is far cheaper to implement, and simply switching to smaller, lighter cars, will have a far more dramatic impact on fuel consumption than adding the extra weight and complexity of motors and battery packs.

[johny]

Don't matter you like hybrid , soon or latter Hybrid car will replace all car use only gas, he price will come cheaper, event battery will cost after 8 year for replacement,but you have no choice, but I believed the battery will last for life of hybrid car

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[Sir Osis of Liver]

Thanks for remaining civil. Quite often these discussions deteriorate into ad homonym attacks. I find point form makes it easier to respond to multiple lines of thought.

1.   I had read the initial Hummer vs Prius reports and they seemed to have had preconceived conclusions in search of information to back them up. The rebuttals have covered that report sufficiently. I would like someone objective to look at the energy cycle of similar vehicles, something like Civic Hybrid vs Civic diesel. Making a fairly educated guess, the energy inputs required to produce the power electronics in hybrids would be far higher than the marginal extra energy required to produce a diesel over a conventional gasoline powered Civic.

2.   Industrial variable frequency drives in the 15 to 25 hp range cost in the vicinity of   $US3500 to $US5500. These are common off-the-shelf unsealed units designed to be installed in climate controlled electrical rooms. The prices almost double for sealed NEMA 4X (basically rain and dust proof) rated drives. Installation in a motor vehicle would require a standard far in excess of a NEMA 4X rating, in order to cope with moisture, vibration temperature range etc. Also take into account the fact that Toyota drives will be different from Honda, which will be different from Ford and GM drives and the unit costs will be much higher than those for off the shelf industrial units.

So drives aren’t cheap, what’s the point? Well the cost is essentially a reflection of the energy inputs required to produce the drives. Whereas, for arguments sake, the incremental cost of producing a diesel Civic may be in the $1500 to $2000 range, producing a Civic Hybrid may well be a $8000 to $10000 adder. This is a reflection, in large part, of the extra energy required.

3.   The current handling devices in VFDs are almost always IGBTs (insulated gate bipolar transistors). They are constructed of semiconductor materials, that when biased alter the voltage waveform the device will pass. They have a finite life span, after which they must be disposed of. They cannot be recycled.

4.   Let’s consider that covered.

5.   Ditto

6.   I don’t know if it’s the media’s fault or not. Likely that the Prius is the one getting the most sales and visibility. With regard to diesels, for this class of car, the only option has been the old turbo-diesel Golf, which is dated. The EPA highway rating is 40mpg, versus 45mpg for the Civic Hybrid. If you look at the feedback to the site however the Golf rated higher. (The 2008 Golf Diesel will be in the 45mpg range. The Euro Accord Diesel is in the mid 50s) Over time I would expect the generator to be called on with greater frequency, due to the natural decline in battery capacity with age. This would impact fuel mileage. This is speculation on my part, based on industrial systems. The diesels will be consistently frugal.

7.   So there’s a chance of needing to replace the battery pack after the warranty expires. How many “Joe Sixpack” types will be willing to take that gamble?

8.   NiMH batteries have different characteristics as far as discharge curves, storage capacity etc, but all batteries share one characteristic: they degrade over time and number of discharge cycles. As an aside, Toyota has decided to change from NiMH to lithium ion batteries because of their higher energy density. (The cost of  nickel may also be a factor)

9.   Covered.

10.   Since the federal rebates (state/provincial rebates still apply) were reduced, the wait time for delivery of a new Prius has disappeared; you can find them on dealer lots, which never happened before. They’ve since introduced 0% financing for two years and other incentives in the US. Dealers used to make over list, now they get MSRP.

11.   There are conflicting reports over whether the $30,000 Prius is profitable or not. Only Toyota knows for sure. Given the production levels, and cost of some of the equipment, most people believe that it’s either unprofitable or marginally profitable. The other hybrids are thought to be unprofitable. One thing is known, that Volkswagen makes money on each one of the much cheaper Golf (the same for the other manufacturers in Europe) diesels it sells.

I don’t consider it a hybrid vs diesel confrontation. I work in an engineering environment and hold to the K.I.S.S. principle. Hybrids aren’t. So no comparison: Diesel wins.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Forgot to include the comparison from www.fueleconomy.gov

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[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think we've covered a fair amount of material here and I really enjoyed the exchange - especially when it remains civil and as fact based as possible. 

While I too, hold the KISS principle very close to me (primarily as a result of my education & occupation  as well) , my personal and professional lemma is that technology holds the key to our sustainability and future of our way of life.  I believe that despite our differing views and backgrounds, our goals remain similar. 

We just differ on the "how".   



Cheers;

MS

Agreed! Welcome to the forum BTW! I hope you stick around, and keep us up to date on your hybrid experience.

[AVToller]

I would like to thank and compliment you gentlemen for the informative and civil discussion. While it might not have had the entertainment ( ) value of some exchanges on these boards, it certainly did provide useful data and stands as an exemplar of reasoned discourse. Well done. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I would like to thank and compliment you gentlemen for the informative and civil discussion. While it might not have had the entertainment ( ) value of some exchanges on these boards, it certainly did provide useful data and stands as an exemplar of reasoned discourse. Well done. 

Thanks professor! Really didn't want it to degenerate into another crapfest. Been too much of that on here lately. I know ' cause I started at least some of it!

And anyone with environmental concern is welcome as far as I'm concerned!

[AVToller]

Thanks professor! Really didn't want it to degenerate into another crapfest. Been too much of that on here lately. I know ' cause I started at least some of it!

And anyone with environmental concern is welcome as far as I'm concerned!

  I heartily concur with both points. 

[johngenx]

I think that all the focus on cars that get under 5L/100km is AWESOME, regardless of the technology used!!

I think that the hybrid technology is proving to be very well supported and I'm surprised at the level of refinement and incredible reliability given the short time span of their introduction.  But, there isn't THAT much new to them.  A gasoline engine, a battery, an electric motor and some computers to manage it.  I suppose that given Honda and Toyota being the major manufacturers pushing the inital hybrids, we shouldn't be too shocked at what great products they've turned out to be.

For me, though, I would still like to see a good mix of things like hybrids and diesels.  Having owned a diesel car, I know what a great combination of economy and torquey fun they can be.  What I'm looking for is diesels that narrow the premium gap between a conventional gasoline model and an ultra-economical version.  Even with the gov't $2K for the Civic Hybrid, it's still $25K pre-tax, about $4K over a DX-G Civic.  They justify the extra cost with goodies, but I couldn't care about the gap between a Civic EX and the Hybrid.  It's the gap between a DX-G that really matters when figuring out the payback period of the Hybrid for me.

But, the gap is closing, and that is good.

Why can't Honda sell the Accord Hybrid?  It's NOT an economy car!!  They lashed the hybrid to a V-6 ferchrissakes.  I wanted to see an Accord that got 4.5L/100km, not a loaded V-6 that barely beats the four-banger.  Sure, it seems like a great way to have your cake and eat it too, but that's not what Honda hybrid buyers are looking for.  Toyota offers the full-size Pruis that matches the Accord for size, but beats the Civic for fuel economy.  THAT is one reason it sells to well.  Pruis sales took off with the second gen.

Potential upcoming hybrid GOOFS:

1. Subaru goes for Toyota hybrid tech instead of diesels, offers a Forester Hybrid for $44,995CDN and NO ONE buys it.
2. Nissan adds hybrid tech to the slow selling Maxima, retaining the 3.5L engine.

Hybrid possible home-runs...

1.Nissan Versa Hybrid.  Undercut the Civic Hybrid price-wise, get 4L/100km economy, and a roomy hatchback!   
2. Honda CR-V Hybrid, as long as it's not astronomically expensive.  Don't pile on the luxe and keep the price smart, and people will buy in droves methinks.

Diesel home runs...

1. Subaru, ANY models with CDN price adjustments.  Give us a Forester D for $26,995  and Impreza D  for $22,995 and watch Subaru dealers hire sales people to deal with the demand.  An AWD wagon that can get 5L/100km?  Subaru NEEDS that to sell in the US, marketing themselves as the super-economy brand with AWD to boot, and in Canada, retain and expand their market considerably.

2. Accord D.  BUT, offer the diesel in base trims, not just $38K models.  We're trying to be economical, dunces.
3. Toyota small car diesels.  Yaris, Corolla, whatever.  BUT, see Honda, above.  Offer the compression engine in lower models too.  A $20K Yaris five door/B-Package with diesel engine (about $1500 more than gas)?  Seriously, I'd buy one tomorrow morning.  By lunch I'd be grinning as I tooled around town in my Yaris.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

In the same vein as the loaded up Accord Hybrid and Toyota Prius, I'm a bit baffled by Jeep offering diesels in only loaded up form. The cheapest you can get into a Cherokee diesel is $55,000! The previous Liberty diesel was in the $35,000 range. How are you supposed to build interest in diesels with pricing like that?

Make the powertrain a free standing option! With all of the changes to the production line i.e. flexibility, why have customer choices been decreasing over the years? If I want a base car with the biggest motor available why can't I get it? Or a base car with a hybrid or diesel power train? How about getting the power seats without leather? Or, my biggie, cruise control without the friggin' luxury group with sunroof?

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