Topic: multi-fits rim cause vibration problem

[Squishy]

I can't remember when they first came out, but multi-fits have definitely been around for a while.  I remember reading an article a while back about a few garages even banning their sale because of all the vibration complaints.  Perhaps some of the shops you went to already banned their use and the techs just didn't consider it?  Although I'm certain Canadian Tire still carries them and with the "quality" of their work, I can't imagine a shortage of vibration issues.

[morty]

Common problem that is easily overlooked. Unless shops do custom wheels regularly they are probably not aware of how important the hub-rings are. Just be glad you finally found the problem.

[nan_wpg]

It sounds like your rims are defective.

Aftermarket rims are lug centric because the hole is bigger to allow fitment for a variety of cars.

Torque the lug nuts before you lower the car. No rings required. Many RX8 owners do not use hub rings with their multi fit rims, and have no problems.

I dont use them and have never had any problems.

[blur911]

It sounds like your rims are defective.

Aftermarket rims are lug centric because the hole is bigger to allow fitment for a variety of cars.

Torque the lug nuts before you lower the car. No rings required. Many RX8 owners do not use hub rings with their multi fit rims, and have no problems.

I dont use them and have never had any problems.

It sounds like you didn't read the whole thread, and are now giving out dangerous advice.

[nan_wpg]

I did read the whole thread. Dangerous advice? Please.
Naturally people who sell these rings will tell you that they are needed.

Once again. if your rims are not hub centric, tighten your lug nuts BEFORE you lower your car. Problem solved.

I bought my rims from a place that has been in business for many years. They do lot's of work for insurance companies too.

When they tell me i do not need the rings (and they actually sell them too) I believe them when they tell me the rims are lug centric, and that I do not need hub rings.

I will take their word over a bunch of so called "experts" on the internet, who for all we know could be 12 year old kids.


Dont believe me, or my supplier?

http://www.americanracing.com/techcenter/techcenterdetail.asp?filename=wheeltech2&section=tech

Send American racing an email . Let them know about the dangerous advice they are dishing out too.


http://customwheelsmarket.com/higperwheel1.html

If your wheels come with hub rings, then sure, use them.

But why buy them if you dont need them?

[blur911]

I did read the whole thread. Dangerous advice? Please.
Naturally people who sell these rings will tell you that they are needed.

Once again. if your rims are not hub centric, tighten your lug nuts BEFORE you lower your car. Problem solved.

I bought my rims from a place that has been in business for many years. They do lot's of work for insurance companies too.

When they tell me i do not need the rings (and they actually sell them too) I believe them when they tell me the rims are lug centric, and that I do not need hub rings.

I will take their word over a bunch of so called "experts" on the internet, who for all we know could be 12 year old kids.


Dont believe me, or my supplier?

http://www.americanracing.com/techcenter/techcenterdetail.asp?filename=wheeltech2&section=tech

Send American racing an email . Let them know about the dangerous advice they are dishing out too.


http://customwheelsmarket.com/higperwheel1.html

If your wheels come with hub rings, then sure, use them.

But why buy them if you dont need them?

I guess you just skimmed the information on the sites you posted, otherwise you would have understood it.
His car requires hub centric wheels, he has hub centric wheels, he needed hub adapter rings to make it work.

 It's not the wheels that are the deciding factor, it's the cars that are designed to be used with or without,  (which is increasingly rare) hub centric wheels.  If you are putting a lug-centric wheel on a  car designed for hubcentric wheels, or leaving out the hub-centric rings,  you're using the wrong wheel or mounting it improperly, a recipe for broken wheel studs and flying wheels.
But what the hell do I know about wheels and tires, I've only worked for Goodyear for 18 years.

[nan_wpg]

No point in arguing with you. You just dont get it. I couldnt care less that you worked at Goodyear for 18 years.

My wheel supplier , who happens to have been in business for longer than you worked at Goodyear says I do not need hub rings.

I know for a fact that he has been i business for years. I do not know you from a hole in the ground.

Excuse me for believing him over you.

As for the wheel studs breaking, well i was told that it aint gonna happen. The actual wheel would fail first.

[aquadorhj]

As for the wheel studs breaking, well i was told that it aint gonna happen. The actual wheel would fail first.

hmm, just throwing it out there, but in what way would wheel fail before the wheel stud?
Why would wheel stud break?

if the car's old or the disk/drum is very rusty, isn't it possible the stud would fail if one were to over-torque by mistake? 

[Squishy]

I think the stud failure would be more due to requiring the studs to center the wheel as well as hold the wheel on (adding more shear stress than is normally expected of the studs) as opposed to overtorquing (adding more tensile stress).

With aluminium or "alloy" wheels, I could see the wheel possibly failing before the studs.  The soft metal can deform and you get elongated holes that lead to vibration.  I don't believe that type of failure would normally happen with a steel wheel, nor would it be safe to assume that it will always be the failure mode of aluminium wheels.

[blur911]

No point in arguing with you. You just dont get it. I couldnt care less that you worked at Goodyear for 18 years.

My wheel supplier , who happens to have been in business for longer than you worked at Goodyear says I do not need hub rings.

I know for a fact that he has been i business for years. I do not know you from a hole in the ground.

Excuse me for believing him over you.

As for the wheel studs breaking, well i was told that it aint gonna happen. The actual wheel would fail first.

Here, argue with Ronal.  Or do you not believe rim manufacturers either, as well as Morty and me?   I don't doubt your rims don't require them, it just means you probably bought them cheap on ebay.

I'll let Ronal explain it.

Hubcentricity: A wheel that is mounted on a vehicle, should be hubcentric, to assure proper fit, and hence will eliminate such issues as vibration, shimmy, and erratic tracking!  A hubcentric fitment, is one where the interior of the backside of the wheel - referred to as "centerbore"-is an exact fit to the "hub"-that protrudes from the mounting surface of the wheel.  The relevant issue here is that the WEIGHT BEARING of the wheel on the car is done on the HUB when it is "mated" to the wheel!  This has to be an exact fit.  The LUG NUTS, simply affix the wheel and hold the wheel to the car and do not affect load bearing.  In fact, lug nuts can loosen, while driving, especially if the wheel is not hubcentric to the car and you can risk loosing your wheels and have annoying issues of vibration, etc while driving.  It is very important to have a wheel that is hubcentric to the specific vehicle.

Ronal, makes all their wheels hubcentric to the vehicle that they are sold!  Ronal provides a "mounting hardware kit", designed specifically to the vehicle they are purchased for.  This includes lug nuts/bolts specific to the vehicle, and a "patented" centering system, TÜV approved.  This system allows the use of a common centerbore opening, and then downsize it, to the appropriate specific centerbore of the vehicle the wheel is to be mounted on.  These snap in rings, as shown in the photos, withstand all weather conditions and provide security while driving, becoming an integral part of the wheel.

[tpl]

Well Blur I would say Ronal has screwed the pooch there.

Ronal, makes all their wheels hubcentric to the vehicle that they are sold!   Ronal provides a "mounting hardware kit", designed specifically to the vehicle they are purchased for.  This includes lug nuts/bolts specific to the vehicle, and a "patented" centering system, TÜV approved.  This system allows the use of a common centerbore opening, and then downsize it, to the appropriate specific centerbore of the vehicle the wheel is to be mounted on.  These snap in rings, as shown in the photos, withstand all weather conditions and provide security while driving, becoming an integral part of the wheel.


So they make general fit wheels and sell hub rings with them.  REAL hubcentric wheels for a given car do not require hub rings.

Not to say that Ronal dont make good wheels  but they do need a better copywriter 

[nan_wpg]

I didnt buy my rims on ebay. I bought them from Winnipeg Wheel Works.

I trust them when they say you dont need hub rings, and when they tell me there are no shear forces on the wheels once the lugs are installed.

For people who cant be bothered to torque before you lower, then yes you need the rings.

Once the lugs are torqued the hub ring does nothing.

As for nuts looseining, suree it can happen. That's why you are supposed to periodically check the torque.

Again people who cant bother to retorque would also benifit from hub rings.

ANyway this is getting stupid. If you want hub rings go and buy them.

[walter_wpg]

I didnt buy my rims on ebay. I bought them from Winnipeg Wheel Works.

I trust them when they say you dont need hub rings, and when they tell me there are no shear forces on the wheels once the lugs are installed.

For people who cant be bothered to torque before you lower, then yes you need the rings.

Once the lugs are torqued the hub ring does nothing.

If you have a rim with a bore that matches the hub, then you can see that the weight of the car is being supported by the hub fitting the rim bore.  However, if the hub doesn't fit the rim bore, how is the weight of the car transferred to the rim? 
 - Through the 4 or 5 bolts/studs (sheer force)? 
 - Through friction between the rim rear surface and the mating surface of the car wheel (friction that would greatly depend on how the lugs were torqued)?

Some other points:
 - Many hub rings are made of nylon, polycarbonate, or some type of plastic.  Would those materials be strong enough to support the car weight in compression?
 - What about the case of the steel wheels that came with your car.  Their centre hole matches your wheel hub. Is the hub supporting the car weight in that case? 
 - If you use cone-seat bolts with your cone-seat rims, do they provide the same centreing forces that you would get if you had hub rings?

(By the way, I have a lot of respect for people and companies who have been in a particular business for a long time. They usually have worthwhile opinions.  However, those opinions are worth a lot more when they are supported by a logical and reasonable explanation, that accounts for the materials and physics of the situation.  "They've been in business for 20 years so they must be right" isn't a well-supported claim, even if they are right.)

[morty]

We include hub rings with no hub-centric wheels because they are necessary...

[bgclarke]

Although I'm certain Canadian Tire still carries them and with the "quality" of their work, I can't imagine a shortage of vibration issues.

On the last car I had, I had a set of Motomaster tires mounted on the factory rims.  It took several trips back to them before they got them balanced properly.

I may pick up a set of the Nordic's at CT but will have to search elsewhere for rims.

[nan_wpg]

What ever.

An engineer friend told me about sheer, and frictional forces, and so forth. Bottom line is he said once the rim is tight there is no force on the lugs.

Can't explain it.

As for a business being right simply because they have been around for 25 years is not what i meant.

The message was that i will put more weight on info from a wheel business over info from a bunch of people on the internet whom I have never met.

Walter, have you ever been to Winnipeg wheel works?  The owner who drives the HUmmer is who I am refering to.

He said torque up before you lower the vehicle.

I have never had any vibration issues. It has to be more than luck considering I have mounted 4 lug centric wheels for 3 winters now. I Cant be lucky 12 times in a row.


Even if I wanted hub rings nobody could supply me anyway. As far as I understand there are no rings for steel wheels.

[HeliDriver]

If you have a rim with a bore that matches the hub, then you can see that the weight of the car is being supported by the hub fitting the rim bore.  However, if the hub doesn't fit the rim bore, how is the weight of the car transferred to the rim? 
 - Through the 4 or 5 bolts/studs (sheer force)? 
 - Through friction between the rim rear surface and the mating surface of the car wheel (friction that would greatly depend on how the lugs were torqued)?

Some other points:
 - Many hub rings are made of nylon, polycarbonate, or some type of plastic.  Would those materials be strong enough to support the car weight in compression?
 - What about the case of the steel wheels that came with your car.  Their centre hole matches your wheel hub. Is the hub supporting the car weight in that case? 
 - If you use cone-seat bolts with your cone-seat rims, do they provide the same centreing forces that you would get if you had hub rings?

Here's some food for thought:

The rims that came on our old Xterra were lugcentric. In fact, there was no raised hub for the rims to sit on in the first place - just a perfectly flat surface on the face of the hub. So, yes, the entire weight of the vehicle was supported simply by the clamping force of the lugnuts through the lugs.

Even on my Civic, which does have hubcentric wheels, the hub flange is just a flimsy steel lip that protrudes out a couple of millimeters: I'd be a little scared to think that tiny lip has any meaningful role in supporting the weight of the car.

Not to say that every car does or does not need hubcentric wheels or rings, just that the huge clamping force of the lugnuts, through the lugs, is plenty enough to get the job done on its own.