Author Topic: The hype over VW's quality problems  (Read 12880 times)

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #80 on: January 24, 2007, 04:36:28 pm »
I'm very happy that you have found a brand that you love so enthusiastically, but the simple fact is that many of us have owned both VWs (and other European cars) and also Japanese cars. While VWs have much to recommend them, for too many us, our personal experiences tend to indicate that reliability is NOT a strong point. I MIGHT consider driving another ONLY if: 1) I did not intend to own it past warranty coverage; 2) had a conveniently local dealer (I don't); 3) that dealer was set up for wireless internet so I could post while waiting for my car - yet again.

Again, whatever numbers you use, it turns out that the difference between the best and the worst manufacturers after three or five years is one or two problems. If you’ve had considerably more than the average of 3.35 (actually 2.99 according to the latest JD Power long-term survey) problems with your VW, then statistically, a lot of people have had less than the average number of problems to make the average what it is.

I’m looking at the 2006 JD Power long-term quality survey and there are 9 Asian manufacturers that finish below average. Mazda is 0.56 problems per car better than VW but Suzuki is 0.19 problems worse! Suzuki owners must have some real horror stories to tell if their cars are less reliable than VWs!

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #81 on: January 24, 2007, 04:40:24 pm »
Volkswagens have been sold in Britain for decades and this is their perspective on VW's quality. Scroll down and look for the word reliability

You may want to read your own links. At least a quarter of the Golf owners posting to 'What Car' are posting stuff like this:

Quote
I fell for the legacy of the Golf. I thought I was buying the quality product of the class, for general family use and the station run. Something that would need little fettling.

Big mistake. 10 months old and 3500 miles and its been off the road for weeks. It has a steering problem, that despite fitting two new racks and suspension mountings, VW have been unable to rectify.

The equivalent models from the competition come in a couple of thousand cheaper. Go for one of those instead and spend the rest on a holiday from your VW woes.

http://www.whatcar.com/car-review-readers.aspx?RT=2507

Interesting because I know what you were getting at, I've been going to Britain for years and VW products there have always had a reputation sort of like Toyota has here now, not always that exciting to drive and a bit expensive but well engineered and extremely durable, safe car buys.


It happens

 http://www.carsurvey.org/viewmorecomments_review_67689_1.html

 http://www.caranddriver.com/longroadtests/10770/long-term-test-review-2005-acura-rl.html

 http://www.oilgelsettlement.com/summary_notice.pdf

« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 04:49:13 pm by VW_Enthusiast »

Offline Careener

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #82 on: January 24, 2007, 05:03:20 pm »
This is an article I will never forget

http://www.thecarconnection.com/Enthusiasts/Mechanics_Tale/Mechanics_Tale_VW_Heal_Thyself.S281.A9081.html

Quote
Once again, as I worked through this I called my tech service and discovered that this was common. The tech even laughed and told me how amusing it was when the engine, starved for oil, was accelerated - say, to pass another car - it often locked the camshafts, resulting in pieces flying everywhere. Yeah, real funny for the middle-class person who shelled out $28,000 for a fine driving machine. As I understand it, the old "secret warranty" is in effect, and if you say the magic words, cry, or know a good attorney, you might get warranty help.

 

A true Volkswagen story

 

My buddy Joe gets a lot of VWs in the upper-class neighborhood his shop is in. In the year 2000, a customer came in to show him the great deal she got on a leftover (brand-new) '99 VW Passat. I guess he couldn't hide the look of disappointment on his face because she said, "What's wrong, you don't like it?" To date, Joe can verify $12,000 in repairs and maintenance to that same vehicle, and there are sure to be some dealer bills he hasn't seen. At 20,000 miles it required complete four-wheel brake replacement. At 40,000 miles the water pump impeller broke, causing an overheat. (Before hearing the story I would have said that water pump impellers never break.) The power windows failed one by one all the way around. The heater core leaked.

 

These are just the highlights. Sooner or later the customer will meet a Toyota owner and discover this is not normal. You can only count on those old Sixties kids buying VWs for so much longer.
 
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Offline Wolfe

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #83 on: January 24, 2007, 05:08:16 pm »
I'm very happy that you have found a brand that you love so enthusiastically, but the simple fact is that many of us have owned both VWs (and other European cars) and also Japanese cars. While VWs have much to recommend them, for too many us, our personal experiences tend to indicate that reliability is NOT a strong point. I MIGHT consider driving another ONLY if: 1) I did not intend to own it past warranty coverage; 2) had a conveniently local dealer (I don't); 3) that dealer was set up for wireless internet so I could post while waiting for my car - yet again.

Again, whatever numbers you use, it turns out that the difference between the best and the worst manufacturers after three or five years is one or two problems. If you’ve had considerably more than the average of 3.35 (actually 2.99 according to the latest JD Power long-term survey) problems with your VW, then statistically, a lot of people have had less than the average number of problems to make the average what it is.

I’m looking at the 2006 JD Power long-term quality survey and there are 9 Asian manufacturers that finish below average. Mazda is 0.56 problems per car better than VW but Suzuki is 0.19 problems worse! Suzuki owners must have some real horror stories to tell if their cars are less reliable than VWs!

 :banghead: Your devotion to damned statistics is sophomoric and simply repeating your argument is not likely to convince anyone here.

We get it. You like VW and think their bad reputation is undeserved.

You haven't said much of anything new after your first post in this thread. Do you have anything else to say?

 
To err is human, to blame it on someone else is even more human.

Offline AVToller

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #84 on: January 24, 2007, 05:24:47 pm »
I'm afraid that it is now time for the ultimate insult as appeals to intelligence have failed.

WHATEVER.  ::) :rofl2:
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Offline Snowman

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #85 on: January 24, 2007, 06:26:49 pm »
I engage the anti-toll device:
 :notroll:

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #86 on: January 24, 2007, 08:31:51 pm »
I'm afraid that it is now time for the ultimate insult as appeals to intelligence have failed.

WHATEVER.  ::) :rofl2:

I must have missed your post where you refuted my math. You should say that your appeal to emotion has failed.

Offline wing

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #87 on: January 24, 2007, 08:41:20 pm »
Nobody is refuting your math.  What everyone is saying, is that is fine that you have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but do you have anything else to say but the same thing you have been saying?

Welcome to the forum, I welcome your opinions and I'm sure others do as well it seems like you are intelligent but you are slowly discrediting yourself and making yourself a target here as you simply repeat the same over and over.  If there is nothing further to say I can lock this thread and we can go on with our lives.

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #88 on: January 24, 2007, 08:48:32 pm »
Ok, I would just like to add that in 2006, the Volkswagen Group sold more vehicles than ever before. The Group sold 5.73 million vehicles worldwide, corresponding to a rise of 9.3 percent compared with the previous year. Also Volkswagen AG cars have won Le Mans for the last seven consecutive years.  ;D

Offline Mitlov

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #89 on: January 24, 2007, 08:59:38 pm »
Ok, I would just like to add that in 2006, the Volkswagen Group sold more vehicles than ever before. The Group sold 5.73 million vehicles worldwide, corresponding to a rise of 9.3 percent compared with the previous year. Also Volkswagen AG cars have won Le Mans for the last seven consecutive years.  ;D

Sales numbers and racing wins have NOTHING to do with the long-term reliability of a manufacturer's cars.  Completely irrelevant.
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Offline Jaeger

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #90 on: January 24, 2007, 09:25:12 pm »
Ok, I would just like to add that in 2006, the Volkswagen Group sold more vehicles than ever before. The Group sold 5.73 million vehicles worldwide, corresponding to a rise of 9.3 percent compared with the previous year. Also Volkswagen AG cars have won Le Mans for the last seven consecutive years.  ;D

Why do you feel the need to convince the world that VW products are ever so wonderful?  You like 'em - be happy with that.  You're not going to convince legions of owners whose VWs have fallen apart around them that their problems are a statistical figment of their imagination.  Or that VW sales and racing wins somehow makes all of that okay.

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Offline onearmed

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #91 on: January 24, 2007, 10:31:32 pm »
Ok, I would just like to add that in 2006, the Volkswagen Group sold more vehicles than ever before. The Group sold 5.73 million vehicles worldwide, corresponding to a rise of 9.3 percent compared with the previous year. Also Volkswagen AG cars have won Le Mans for the last seven consecutive years.  ;D

Why do you feel the need to convince the world that VW products are ever so wonderful?  You like 'em - be happy with that.  You're not going to convince legions of owners whose VWs have fallen apart around them that their problems are a statistical figment of their imagination.  Or that VW sales and racing wins somehow makes all of that okay.

Jaeger

Exactly....  People who have had a decent experiences will chime in with their experiences and people who have had miserable experiences will explain their case.  No need to start a new thread to defend a whole company. 

Anyways, this thread should be locked by now.... or moved at the very least.

Offline JSCC

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #92 on: January 24, 2007, 11:07:05 pm »
 :popcorn:
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Offline mwqa

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #93 on: January 24, 2007, 11:08:29 pm »
European reliability - VW at the bottom.  :D

Mazda zoom zooms to top of reliability survey http://www.channel4.com/4car/news/news-story.jsp?news_id=15708&ref=archive

'At the bottom end of the table were Chrysler's Jeep brand (46.36 failures per 100 vehicles), Land Rover (44.21), Saab (41.59), Alfa Romeo (39.13), Renault and Seat (both 36.87), Audi (36.74), Chrysler (34.9), Skoda (32.12), Jaguar (32.05), Volkswagen (31.44), Volvo (31.28), MG Rover (31.12) and Mercedes-Benz (29.9).'

But that's OK. As someone once said, reliability isn't the only factor to consider in buying a car.  :)
Just put the steering wheel in the DOWN position and the drive feels much better - watz up with that??

Offline AVToller

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #94 on: January 24, 2007, 11:34:29 pm »

Offline dr_spock

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #95 on: January 25, 2007, 12:20:30 am »
My neighbour has three VWs...a restored 60-something bug, a new Beetle and one of their van things (How's that for detail?).

Depends if it is enough detail to hold up in court.  :)

There was a VW called the Thing.   

Offline dr_spock

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #96 on: January 25, 2007, 12:30:04 am »
You could always try http://www.vwvortex.com.   They're friendlier towards VWs over there.  :)


Offline Arctic_White

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #97 on: January 25, 2007, 01:54:45 am »



VW-Enthusiast, the one aspect you keep avoiding is the severity of the 'problems' the owners are having.  If -- for instance with the coil-pack fiasco -- there are only a few problems, but they leave the owner stranded at the side of the road, that is a greater quality concern than another vehicle that suffers a few CEL's (with no noticable affect on performance) and a trim piece that falls off. 

Perhaps it would be interesting if you could work dollar values for all the problems into your equations as a reference point to see the significance of the problems afflicting the various cars. 

That's the point I've been trying to make. When JD Powers says that 100 VWs have 335 problems and 100 Toyotas have 194 problems there is no information in there that will tell you the type of problems or their distribution (frequency distribution). You cannot calculate anything other than averages with these numbers. Not probability nor anything else. VW's numbers could be skewed higher by a small number of cars that have an inordinately large number of problems or they could all have close to 3.35 problems per car. There is not enough information to tell. Look at this Canadian Driver article form November http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/061130-6.htm that shows that Audi, Mercedes and BMW have amongst the fewest "defects/malfunctions" in a JD Power initial quality survey but BMW loses when they include "design-related problems." And even the VW Touran was the best in its class but how is that possible?

Perhaps in the #'s that you quoted, there may not be enough information.

But don't forget the fact that when the VW article was published, a great # of people signed-up for this forum just to express their misfortune with VW.

That, my friend, is enough information for me to be really skeptical about purchasing a VW. 

Oh, and BTW, almost anyone who has graduated from a high school with a Math 11 minimum could follow your simple math in your first post. 

;)




Offline Arctic_White

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #98 on: January 25, 2007, 02:02:23 am »
I'm very happy that you have found a brand that you love so enthusiastically, but the simple fact is that many of us have owned both VWs (and other European cars) and also Japanese cars. While VWs have much to recommend them, for too many us, our personal experiences tend to indicate that reliability is NOT a strong point. I MIGHT consider driving another ONLY if: 1) I did not intend to own it past warranty coverage; 2) had a conveniently local dealer (I don't); 3) that dealer was set up for wireless internet so I could post while waiting for my car - yet again.

Again, whatever numbers you use, it turns out that the difference between the best and the worst manufacturers after three or five years is one or two problems. If you’ve had considerably more than the average of 3.35 (actually 2.99 according to the latest JD Power long-term survey) problems with your VW, then statistically, a lot of people have had less than the average number of problems to make the average what it is.

I’m looking at the 2006 JD Power long-term quality survey and there are 9 Asian manufacturers that finish below average. Mazda is 0.56 problems per car better than VW but Suzuki is 0.19 problems worse! Suzuki owners must have some real horror stories to tell if their cars are less reliable than VWs!

At least three other people have presented three different ideas, yet you failed to reply to any of them.

What gives?

For a university-educated student, shouldn't one strive to learn and understand?  Listen, think, and appreciate other people's ideas/opinions?  I'm not positive, but it appears that you're very narrow-focused.  Shouldn't you have an open-mind?  If you want a discussion, we're all up for it.  But please, respect first.

BTW... Did you even read other people's comments?  ::)

« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 02:04:00 am by PWP_6MT »

Offline Jaeger

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #99 on: January 25, 2007, 10:38:15 am »
I'm very happy that you have found a brand that you love so enthusiastically, but the simple fact is that many of us have owned both VWs (and other European cars) and also Japanese cars. While VWs have much to recommend them, for too many us, our personal experiences tend to indicate that reliability is NOT a strong point. I MIGHT consider driving another ONLY if: 1) I did not intend to own it past warranty coverage; 2) had a conveniently local dealer (I don't); 3) that dealer was set up for wireless internet so I could post while waiting for my car - yet again.

Again, whatever numbers you use, it turns out that the difference between the best and the worst manufacturers after three or five years is one or two problems. If you’ve had considerably more than the average of 3.35 (actually 2.99 according to the latest JD Power long-term survey) problems with your VW, then statistically, a lot of people have had less than the average number of problems to make the average what it is.

I’m looking at the 2006 JD Power long-term quality survey and there are 9 Asian manufacturers that finish below average. Mazda is 0.56 problems per car better than VW but Suzuki is 0.19 problems worse! Suzuki owners must have some real horror stories to tell if their cars are less reliable than VWs!

At least three other people have presented three different ideas, yet you failed to reply to any of them.

What gives?

For a university-educated student, shouldn't one strive to learn and understand?  Listen, think, and appreciate other people's ideas/opinions?  I'm not positive, but it appears that you're very narrow-focused.  Shouldn't you have an open-mind?  If you want a discussion, we're all up for it.  But please, respect first.

BTW... Did you even read other people's comments?  ::)



I doubt very much he has read the comments of those who refuse to bow down to his superior intellect.  He strikes me as the type who can only hear the sound of his own voice - and never ever gets tired of it.

Jaeger