Author Topic: The hype over VW's quality problems  (Read 12880 times)

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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The hype over VW's quality problems
« on: January 23, 2007, 09:38:16 am »
I've passed eight university math courses and am working on my ninth. If you don't know much about math or cannot understand the calculations at the bottom of this post, please do not participate in this discussion.

What the JD Powers and Consumer Reports numbers say:



Quote

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 29 June 2005 — The automotive industry records an impressive 12 percent improvement in long-term vehicle quality, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) released today.
The study, which measures problems experienced by original owners of 3-year-old (2002 model-year) vehicles, provides useful information to both consumers and the automotive industry on long-term vehicle quality. For consumers, the VDS offers insight into the reliability and dependability of brands and specific models as they approach the end of a typical warranty period.


---

JD Powers reports that 3-year-old (2002 model-year) Volkswagens have 335 problems per 100 cars. It also shows that Nissans have 275 problems per 100 cars, Mazdas have 252 problems per 100 cars and that Toyotas have 194 problems per 100 cars. This means that one single 3-year-old Volkswagen will have, on average, 335/100 = 3.35 problems. It also means that one single 3-year-old Nissan will  have, on average, 2.75 problems and one single 3-year-old Mazda will have, on average, 2.52 problems and finally one Toyota will have, on average, 1.94 problems. This shows (see my math explanation below) that a 3-year-old Volkswagen will have, on average, only 3.35 - 2.75 = 0.6 (i.e., six tenths of one problem) more problems than a 3-year-old Nissan. Similarly it shows that a 3-year-old VW will have, on average, 3.35 - 2.52 = 0.83 more problems than a 3-year-old Mazda and 3.35 - 1.94 = 1.41 more problems than a 3-year-old Toyota. 

All the over-the-top hyperbole about how unreliable VWs are is not borne out by the numbers for if you argue that 3-year-old VWs with an average of 3.35 problems per car are so unreliable, then you must also argue that 3-year-old Nissans, with an average of just six tenths fewer problems per car, are also extremely unreliable. I have never heard this level of hype regarding Nissan’s reliability problems nor have I heard it concerning Mazda’s reliability problems.

The JD Powers and Consumer Reports numbers do not show how the problems are distributed over the 100 cars of each group so you cannot assume that you know how they are distributed. We are also not given enough information to calculate the median, mode or standard deviation of the data set but as pointed out above we can calculate the average number of problems per car and hence the average difference in problems between two cars and as my calculations show the difference is less than 1.5 problems between a 3-year-old Toyota and a 3-year-old VW.

----

Calculations:

Suppose we have one group of cars containing three European cars and another group containing three Asian cars. Let E1 be the number of problems the first European car has and let E2 be the number of problems the second European car has and let E3 be the number of problems that the third European car has. Similarly let A1, A2 and A3 be the number of problems for the three Asian cars.

So the total number of problems for the group of European cars would be E1 + E2 + E3 and the average number of problems per European car would be (E1 + E2 + E3) / 3. Similarly, the total number of problems for the group of Asian cars would be A1 + A2 + A3 and the average number of problems per Asian car would be (A1 + A2 + A3 ) / 3.
This information would seem to indicate that a European car would have, on average,

* (E1 + E2 + E3) / 3 - (A1 + A2 + A3 ) / 3

more problems than an Asian car. Let’s check it by directly calculating the average difference in problems between one European car and one Asian car by looking at every possible pairing of one European car with one Asian car and calculating the difference in problems for each of those possible pairings. If you then add up those differences in problems and divide by the number of possible pairings, you get the average difference in problems between a European car and an Asian car.

There are 9 possible unique pairings of one European car with one Asian car from our two groups of cars. The difference in problems for each of these 9 possible pairings are:

E1 - A1
E1 - A2
E1 - A3
E2 - A1
E2 - A2
E2 - A3
E3 - A1
E3 - A2
E3 - A3

If you add them up and divide by 9, we should get the same average calculated above. Let’s try it.

(3E1 + 3E2 + 3E3 - 3A1 - 3A2 - 3A3) / 9 = (E1 + E2 + E3 - A1 - A2 - A3) / 3 =

* (E1 + E2 + E3) / 3 - (A1 + A2 + A3) / 3

which is indeed the same as the average calculated above.

This method can be generalized to a group of N European cars and a group of N Asian cars. The April, 2006 Consumer Reports Auto issue said that there were 97 problems per 100 European cars and 44 problems per 100 Asian cars and using the method here we can see that that means a European car will have, on average, 97/100 - 44/100 = 0.53 more problems than an Asian car.

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2007, 10:02:56 am »
calculations are great  :).. but we still seem to have alot of pi$$ed of VW owners on the fourm who could care less about the statistics ::)

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2007, 10:11:45 am »
The great thing about numbers is that they can be manipulated.

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2007, 10:18:12 am »
I've passed eight university math courses and am working on my ninth. If you don't know much about math or cannot understand the calculations at the bottom of this post, please do not participate in this discussion.  :rofl: :rofl:

What the JD Powers and Consumer Reports numbers say:



Quote

WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.: 29 June 2005 — The automotive industry records an impressive 12 percent improvement in long-term vehicle quality, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) released today.
The study, which measures problems experienced by original owners of 3-year-old (2002 model-year) vehicles, provides useful information to both consumers and the automotive industry on long-term vehicle quality. For consumers, the VDS offers insight into the reliability and dependability of brands and specific models as they approach the end of a typical warranty period.


---

JD Powers reports that 3-year-old (2002 model-year) Volkswagens have 335 problems per 100 cars. It also shows that Nissans have 275 problems per 100 cars, Mazdas have 252 problems per 100 cars and that Toyotas have 194 problems per 100 cars. This means that one single 3-year-old Volkswagen will have, on average, 335/100 = 3.35 problems. It also means that one single 3-year-old Nissan will  have, on average, 2.75 problems and one single 3-year-old Mazda will have, on average, 2.52 problems and finally one Toyota will have, on average, 1.94 problems. This shows (see my math explanation below) that a 3-year-old Volkswagen will have, on average, only 3.35 - 2.75 = 0.6 (i.e., six tenths of one problem) more problems than a 3-year-old Nissan. Similarly it shows that a 3-year-old VW will have, on average, 3.35 - 2.52 = 0.83 more problems than a 3-year-old Mazda and 3.35 - 1.94 = 1.41 more problems than a 3-year-old Toyota. 

All the over-the-top hyperbole about how unreliable VWs are is not borne out by the numbers for if you argue that 3-year-old VWs with an average of 3.35 problems per car are so unreliable, then you must also argue that 3-year-old Nissans, with an average of just six tenths fewer problems per car, are also extremely unreliable. I have never heard this level of hype regarding Nissan’s reliability problems nor have I heard it concerning Mazda’s reliability problems.

The JD Powers and Consumer Reports numbers do not show how the problems are distributed over the 100 cars of each group so you cannot assume that you know how they are distributed. We are also not given enough information to calculate the median, mode or standard deviation of the data set but as pointed out above we can calculate the average number of problems per car and hence the average difference in problems between two cars and as my calculations show the difference is less than 1.5 problems between a 3-year-old Toyota and a 3-year-old VW.

----

Calculations:

Suppose we have one group of cars containing three European cars and another group containing three Asian cars. Let E1 be the number of problems the first European car has and let E2 be the number of problems the second European car has and let E3 be the number of problems that the third European car has. Similarly let A1, A2 and A3 be the number of problems for the three Asian cars.

So the total number of problems for the group of European cars would be E1 + E2 + E3 and the average number of problems per European car would be (E1 + E2 + E3) / 3. Similarly, the total number of problems for the group of Asian cars would be A1 + A2 + A3 and the average number of problems per Asian car would be (A1 + A2 + A3 ) / 3.
This information would seem to indicate that a European car would have, on average,

* (E1 + E2 + E3) / 3 - (A1 + A2 + A3 ) / 3

more problems than an Asian car. Let’s check it by directly calculating the average difference in problems between one European car and one Asian car by looking at every possible pairing of one European car with one Asian car and calculating the difference in problems for each of those possible pairings. If you then add up those differences in problems and divide by the number of possible pairings, you get the average difference in problems between a European car and an Asian car.

There are 9 possible unique pairings of one European car with one Asian car from our two groups of cars. The difference in problems for each of these 9 possible pairings are:

E1 - A1
E1 - A2
E1 - A3
E2 - A1
E2 - A2
E2 - A3
E3 - A1
E3 - A2
E3 - A3

If you add them up and divide by 9, we should get the same average calculated above. Let’s try it.

(3E1 + 3E2 + 3E3 - 3A1 - 3A2 - 3A3) / 9 = (E1 + E2 + E3 - A1 - A2 - A3) / 3 =

* (E1 + E2 + E3) / 3 - (A1 + A2 + A3) / 3

which is indeed the same as the average calculated above.

This method can be generalized to a group of N European cars and a group of N Asian cars. The April, 2006 Consumer Reports Auto issue said that there were 97 problems per 100 European cars and 44 problems per 100 Asian cars and using the method here we can see that that means a European car will have, on average, 97/100 - 44/100 = 0.53 more problems than an Asian car.



Nice work but all the math in the world does not equate into sales numbers. Please stay in school, as there is no place for you in reality.

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2007, 10:19:12 am »
The problem with these reports is that they do not specify the nature of the problems.  If the Toyota's 1.49 problems per car are, for argument's sake, such things as exterior trim falling off and faulty CD players versus VW's problems involving such things as premature timing belt and head gasket failures, there is a great difference in the level of frustration caused to the owner.

You have to take the number and nature of the issues into account.  You must do a qualitative and quantitative analysis of the issue for it to have any sort of validity.
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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2007, 10:23:06 am »
Thats about 40% more of a chance having a problem with a VW than a Toyota..quite the ODDS....and as has been said the "UN QUALITY" of the problem is MOST IMPORTANT too :P     1+1 = 2..........sometimes Math Genius.... :P

 How are ya enjoying "DAMN STATISTIC 103????".......yer numbers UP big Boy... :stick:
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Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2007, 10:26:30 am »
The problem with these reports is that they do not specify the nature of the problems.  If the Toyota's 1.49 problems per car are, for argument's sake, such things as exterior trim falling off and faulty CD players versus VW's problems involving such things as premature timing belt and head gasket failures, there is a great difference in the level of frustration caused to the owner.

You have to take the number and nature of the issues into account.  You must do a qualitative and quantitative analysis of the issue for it to have any sort of validity.

I covered that in my original post. You cannot assume that you know what kinds of problems they are or how they are distributed because JD Power and CR don't tell you. Read the Canadian Driver article "Honda and Toyota score highest in South Africa" from Nov. 30 to see how JD Power classifies some "problems."

« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 10:41:54 am by VW_Enthusiast »

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2007, 10:38:45 am »
Thats about 40% more of a chance having a problem with a VW than a Toyota..quite the ODDS....and as has been said the "UN QUALITY" of the problem is MOST IMPORTANT too :P     1+1 = 2..........sometimes Math Genius.... :P

 How are ya enjoying "DAMN STATISTIC 103????".......yer numbers UP big Boy... :stick:

How are you going to figure out probability if you don't know how the problems are distributed among the 100 cars of each make? It's theoretically possible that one of the 100 VWs had 335 problems and that the other 99 VWs had none. It’s also possible that 99 of the Toyotas had one problem each and the 100th Toyota had 95 problems. So the probability of getting a VW with at least one problem in this (admittedly unlikely yet theoretically possible) case would be 1% and the probability of getting a Toyota with at least one problem would be 100%.  So how many Stats courses have you passed?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2007, 10:49:12 am by VW_Enthusiast »

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2007, 10:39:58 am »
 :popcorn:
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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2007, 10:51:52 am »
Thats about 40% more of a chance having a problem with a VW than a Toyota..quite the ODDS....and as has been said the "UN QUALITY" of the problem is MOST IMPORTANT too :P     1+1 = 2..........sometimes Math Genius.... :P

 How are ya enjoying "DAMN STATISTIC 103????".......yer numbers UP big Boy... :stick:

How are you going to figure out probability if you don't know how the problems are distributed among the 100 cars of each make? It's theoretically possible that one of the 100 VWs had 335 problems and that the other 99 VWs had none. It’s also possible that 99 of the Toyotas had one problem each and the 100th Toyota had 95 problems. So the probability of getting a VW with 0 problems in this (admittedly unlikely yet theoretically possible) case would be  99% and the probability of getting a Toyota with at least one problem would be 100%.  So how many Stats courses have you passed?

We just want to know about Saf's Stat ...us. Who cares about courses?  :) ;D

One very important factor in reliability calculation is the Probability of Breakdown, I mean, car couldn't start, not drivable, or sitting in a dealership waiting for parts. We call it Down Time, and the cost associated with it, like people's time to solve it, cannot do work because of it ...  In the working world, that is the most important piece of data we need to know. The rest means jack. Time = $$$.

Offline VW_Enthusiast

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2007, 10:56:46 am »


So what numbers do you have for "Probability of Breakdown" for the different manufacturers?

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 11:35:15 am »
You can use statistics to prove anything, 45% of all people know that - Homer Simpson.

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2007, 11:38:11 am »
Thats about 40% more of a chance having a problem with a VW than a Toyota..quite the ODDS....and as has been said the "UN QUALITY" of the problem is MOST IMPORTANT too :P     1+1 = 2..........sometimes Math Genius.... :P

 How are ya enjoying "DAMN STATISTIC 103????".......yer numbers UP big Boy... :stick:

How are you going to figure out probability if you don't know how the problems are distributed among the 100 cars of each make? It's theoretically possible that one of the 100 VWs had 335 problems and that the other 99 VWs had none. It’s also possible that 99 of the Toyotas had one problem each and the 100th Toyota had 95 problems. So the probability of getting a VW with at least one problem in this (admittedly unlikely yet theoretically possible) case would be 1% and the probability of getting a Toyota with at least one problem would be 100%.  So how many Stats courses have you passed?

I never took 10 math classes but it sounds to me like you are saying the number can be changed to mean anything.  :-\
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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2007, 11:55:48 am »
"we can see that that means a European car will have, on average, 97/100 - 44/100 = 0.53 more problems than an Asian car."

Of course another way to look at YOUR calculations is that a European car will have 2.20 times as many problems as an Asian car.  :o :o :rofl2: :rofl: :rofl2:

BTW, I won the RPI award for math and science AND taught a university stats course.  ;D
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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2007, 11:57:16 am »


So what numbers do you have for "Probability of Breakdown" for the different manufacturers?

Sorry, I don't have any of those numbers. I have a thing call LIFE.  :) Nor am I high on certain brands. But when I see or heard from people I know have new car problems that the car isn't drivable, it ain't reliable, regardless what a survey saids. IMO.

Saw a NEW Audi S6 on the local Home Depot parking lot, a tow truck driver is having a hell of a time trying to load it onto the flat bed, on the cell phone calling for help. 30 minutes later, S6 still is not onto tow truck yet. Made a  note to self, Audios,  Audi.  :)

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2007, 12:01:12 pm »
  doesn't yer P> 0.05 ta be seen in the snow?????  cubic zircomiums that is... ;)..


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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2007, 12:09:52 pm »
I once asked a co-worker whether she'd replace her VW Golf with another Volkswagen. She said, "Nope, I can’t afford it. I have mortgage payments to make now." And I’ve seen her total frustration in dealing with repairs.  >:(

Bad word of mouth is always more reliable than statistics, in my book.
Just put the steering wheel in the DOWN position and the drive feels much better - watz up with that??

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 12:33:41 pm »
Part of my problem was that there is such a great disparity between the "quality FEEL" of the VW and the actual reliability. Based upon feel, I expected that the Golf would be utterly reliable for many years of ownership. When the reality was quite contrary, the sense of "betrayal" was significant. One expects a car that "feels cheap" to break down, but one that feels so solid should last forever.

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2007, 12:40:57 pm »
Something like 50%* of the new forum members this month came to complain about VW.. that's an interesting stat.



*note: I'm lazy and didn't bother to find the numbers but there was a lot ;)

Offline initial_D

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Re: The hype over VW's quality problems
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2007, 12:45:05 pm »
Something like 50%* of the new forum members this month came to complain about VW.. that's an interesting stat.



*note: I'm lazy and didn't bother to find the numbers but there was a lot ;)

OK. Laziness is acceptable.  :) But how many Math courses did you take to qualify you to state such a number?  ;D