Author Topic: Should Toyota buy Saab?  (Read 6513 times)

Offline Mitlov

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Should Toyota buy Saab?
« on: November 18, 2006, 06:24:18 pm »
Toyota seems to have made a habit recently of buying GM's interest in various brands (first Subaru, now Isuzu).  And last night I got to thinking.  I've heard several rumors that GM is trying to unload Saab--there was talk at SaabCentral for a little while about Nissan buying Saab, but that didn't seem to ever materialize.  And so I thought--why not Toyota?  They've got the money and the expansionist strategy.

I thought a new model line with the Saab name might help Toyota grab a chunk of sales from folks who insist on European nameplates.  I don't see your typical Saab (FWD, lower-end-luxury, turbocharged, hatchback or wagon) as competing directly with anything Toyota or their subsidiaries offers.  Saab, in turn, would benefit from an infusion of capital and maybe the addition of better quality-controls to help clean up their disastrous reliability record.

I think the real question is whether Toyota could come up with a "troll rampant" badge that didn't fade to a silver disc within three years...

What do others think?
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Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2006, 07:06:11 pm »
It would be interesting...  but would we just end up with rebadged Lexuses trying to appeal to Euro-badge whores?  I think if anyone were to buy Saab, Honda would do a good job of it, because they have a really strong reputation for making great-handling front-drivers, which is very similar to Saab.  Some Saab and Acura models would probably intersect nicely, even.  :)

Not to say Toyota would not do a good job of it, I'm just a little more doubtful about their ability to keep Saab "exciting".

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2006, 07:46:29 pm »
I still think that Subaru, SAAB, and Suzuki should form an "S3" alliance.  They each have strong points and don't really encroach on each other's target markets...
-Ken

SAAB: automobile design inspired by Salvador Dali on an absinthe bender.

Offline ovr50

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2006, 08:25:57 pm »
IMO Saab is an unexciting, low volume, semi-reliable, "weird" marque and again, IMO only, I don't see why Toyota would be interested in it. If GM wishes to unload their ownership interest, I suspect it's because they can't make money with it. Some find Saabs exciting? I sure don't think of it that way. There has been a Saab/Saturn dealer here for some number of years now, and there are very few Saabs on the streets. I did own one (900S IIRC) back in 1983 briefly when I was in Denver, but sold it to return to Canada. Also a "cult car", is it not?  ??? ::)
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Offline Silent Lucidity

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2006, 10:35:14 pm »
Scion is already Toyota's weird and cult like Saab cars brand.  I think Toyota is better off growing Scion, then rebuilding Saab.  A re-badge Euro Toyota Avensis wagon or next gen Legacy would fit well as their next new car.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2006, 10:38:30 pm by simplemind »

Offline Mitlov

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2006, 01:25:56 am »
Scion is already Toyota's weird and cult like Saab cars brand.  I think Toyota is better off growing Scion, then rebuilding Saab.  A re-badge Euro Toyota Avensis wagon or next gen Legacy would fit well as their next new car.

I don't think you can compare Saab and Scion, as Scions are super-cheap compacts and subcompacts, whereas Saab is a (lower-end) luxury brand.

The Honda idea was actually really good, but I haven't seen much evidence that Honda wants to broaden it's nameplate portfolio beyond just Honda and Acura.

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2006, 02:49:57 am »
Unfortunately, yeah.  On the other hand, putting all of their money and effort in enhancing their own product instead of trying to float other brands is one of the things that makes Honda such a solid company, so...

Offline articsteve

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2006, 03:17:54 am »
Why would Toyota wish to dilute their dominant position over GM with one of GM's biggest turkeys.   :rofl:
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Offline UmroAyyar

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2006, 10:21:30 am »
Interesting idea Mitlove, but Toyota bought stake in Subaru and Isuzu to create synergies, Subaru to use their plant capacities, hybrid battery research, AWD systems. Isuzu for diesel engine technology. Toyota didn't automatically buy stake in Suzuki when GM uloaded its stake. Toyota has Daihatsu for that purpose, make excellent small cars.
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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2006, 12:54:22 pm »
Maybe if they had done it before GM diluted the SAAB brand.... not now.
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Offline Mitlov

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2006, 05:26:30 pm »
Why would Toyota wish to dilute their dominant position over GM with one of GM's biggest turkeys.   :rofl:

Three reasons: Audi A3, Mercedes B-Class, BMW 1-Series.  The luxury hatchback scene is taking off, and Lexus (1) has no credible entry, and (2) has no name credibility with people who like agile, sporty cars (I'm not dissing their incredibly posh sedans and SUVs, though).  Lexus doesn't even have a sporty crossover like the RDX and FX.  If they want a credible entry into that expanding market, they're going to have to think of something creative.

GM killed Saab by forgetting its past.  They don't even SELL a hatchback besides the rebadged Impreza.  Instead, they've got midsize sedan/wagon, a large sedan/wagon, and an SUV.  I see Toyota as doing something very different with Saab.  Saab could be to Lexus what Scion is to Toyota--just a couple of models with more spunk but a bit less refinement, sold under a different name out of the same dealerships.

If I was Toyota, I would buy Saab, and end their entire current model line.  I would then use a single, sporty FWD platform (maybe even derived from the last-generation Celica).  I would take one of my reliable four-cylinder engines and turbocharge it.  I would then make a three-door hatch, a five-door hatch, and perhaps a convertible that all had the unmistakeable silhouette and interior oddities of the older Saabs.  It would have more sport and less luxury than your typical Lexus, and would be priced to compete with cars like the A3 and TSX.

If that sort of car was built with a Lexus name, I think it might (1) lack credibility with the target market, and (2) "dilute" the Lexus name by introducing a four-cylinder and a car cheaper than their current offerings.  Two serious negatives.  If that car was sold under the Sasab name out of Lexus dealerships, I don't think either negative would occur.

Oh yeah--and I'd come up with a better ad campaign than that "born from jets" c---.

I honestly think that that could resurrect the SAAB name from what GM has done to it.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2006, 05:36:09 pm by Mitlov »

Offline Wolfe

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2006, 08:29:31 pm »
Simple answer: NO!

An interesting proposition to discuss but to me the answer is clear. From your last post Mitlov you seem to think the only thing worth buying is the Saab nameplate. In that case you are looking at this from a marketing perspective only. If I were Toyota I would want something of greater value for my money. If Saab had to be rebuilt from the ground up as you suggest that would likely end up costing more than launching an entirely new brand slotted between Toyota and Lexus. I don't see a whole lot of space between Toyota's existing brands at the moment anyway. While Toyota is sadly lacking in sportiness I don't think the solution to this problem is to buy GM's problem.

As UmroAyyar said Toyota seemed to have some clear objectives when they bought into both Fuji Heavy Industries and Isuzu. When the Isuzu deal was announced they also announced a memorandum of understanding which clearly laid out the areas of cooperation between the companies. See the article SirAquaman posted here:  http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,49180.0.html
I don't see any similar benefits available to Toyota if they bought Saab.

IIRC Bob Lutz commented publicly a few months ago about the fact that Saab had finally been fully absorbed into GM's global product planning system.

Remember that when Toyota wanted to get into the luyury car market back in the 1980s they decided to start from scratch with Lexus rather than buy another brand. Considering how successfully that has worked out I don't see why they would buy an ailing brand to fill an even smaller market niche now.


Note: The last-generation Celica used the Corolla platform and the same engine family. What you're proposing sounds a lot like a reskinned Corolla/Matrix XRS with a turbo and the ignition between the seats.  :think: That still doesn't seem very Saab-like to me.  :P
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Offline ovr50

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2006, 10:32:32 pm »
Right, and besides, Saab is not a luxury brand.

Offline articsteve

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2006, 01:15:14 am »
Right, and besides, Saab is not a luxury brand.

and it's not "sporty" like BMW.  Saab tried to position themselves beside the 3 series BMW when they (Saab) killed the hatch.   ::) :P  Hatch being the best feature of the car.  ::) :P

If that car was sold under the Sasab name out of Lexus dealerships, I don't think either negative would occur.

Mitlov, that is truly an insane thought.  :)

Offline superukr

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2006, 10:40:28 am »
Right, and besides, Saab is not a luxury brand.
I'm wondering if any of you even saw Saab car not saying drive one. Saab has luxury options which was not available in any luxury car for a long time, just for example ventilated leather seats.
Saab is like Volvo but much sporty, it's like for me would be embarrassing to drive V70 (soccer mom car) instead I'm driving 9-5 wagon which is way cooler.

Offline ktm525

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2006, 10:54:19 am »
Right, and besides, Saab is not a luxury brand.
I'm wondering if any of you even saw Saab car not saying drive one. Saab has luxury options which was not available in any luxury car for a long time, just for example ventilated leather seats.
Saab is like Volvo but much sporty, it's like for me would be embarrassing to drive V70 (soccer mom car) instead I'm driving 9-5 wagon which is way cooler.

Them be fighting words.  ;)When and where do you want to face off against my V70 (Soccer mom car)? I tried a 9-5 Aero before buying the V70R. There is not one thing that the Aero does that the V70R does better. A 9-5 cool?  ::) :rofl2:


Offline ovr50

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2006, 10:58:39 am »
Right, and besides, Saab is not a luxury brand.
I'm wondering if any of you even saw Saab car not saying drive one. Saab has luxury options which was not available in any luxury car for a long time, just for example ventilated leather seats.
Saab is like Volvo but much sporty, it's like for me would be embarrassing to drive V70 (soccer mom car) instead I'm driving 9-5 wagon which is way cooler.

Actually, superukr, I have owned a Saab, therefore I have certainly driven one, and I stand by my opinion. You, of course, are entitled to your own opinion, although like ktm, I would argue with you about your view on a V70 Volvo. 9-5 is cool? Ha.  :rofl2: :rofl2:

Offline superukr

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2006, 11:53:50 am »
not cool huh?
V70R has only more 40 hp + AWD and that's it, yes AWD is good but for that price and AWD I would go for a bimmer to just burn rubber on traffic lights.
comfort, list of options standard for much less money, cargo, turning circle, audio and so on.

Offline ktm525

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2006, 12:12:51 pm »
Saab 9-5 wagon = Torque steer. The excessive front and rear overhangs do not suggest performance and are not very pleasing to the eye. Why the Saab 9-5 is saddled with such a short wheebase relative to its length has always puzzled me. VW has copied it however with the new Passat.

You can keep your tight turning circle.

I will take the Volvo's 330mm rotors and 4 piston Brembo's vs the 306/286 rotors in the 9-5. Ever been outbraked by a "soccer mom". ;D

I will take the "only 40 Hp and AWD" ::) , the AWD came in handy to today in the fresh snow.  :P

I will also take my 6 speed vs the 5speed  tranny.

As for the BMW, it is $20k more than the Volvo and while beautiful is a bit of a slug. The 530 X wagon would not strike fear into either the Saab or the Volvo at stoplights. It outweighs both, has 255HP and 220 ft/lbs. :o
« Last Edit: November 23, 2006, 12:34:49 pm by ktm525 »

Offline Scaerio

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Re: Should Toyota buy Saab?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2006, 12:19:11 pm »
Right, and besides, Saab is not a luxury brand.
I'm wondering if any of you even saw Saab car not saying drive one. Saab has luxury options which was not available in any luxury car for a long time, just for example ventilated leather seats.
Saab is like Volvo but much sporty, it's like for me would be embarrassing to drive V70 (soccer mom car) instead I'm driving 9-5 wagon which is way cooler.

Yuu Englisch gud rite.