Topic: Bluetec Diesel Technology Pushed by Euros

[sirAQUAMAN64]

I think it really makes sense to co-operate on this. I would imagine Benz will continue their marketing conversion from 'CDI' to 'Bluetec', while I thought it would makes sense for VAG to continue to use 'TDI' even if Bluetec technology is under the hood, but looks like that won't be the case. I guess it would be confusing, but would imagine as a manufacturer you would want to market your engine under a different name or in some way to differientiate yourself. That said, when you're sharing technology between luxury marques one's not too concerned about image... could be a positive.

Bluetec is quite complex tho, requires the Urea for EPA certification, particulate filters, etc. I have to question the cost. But further to that is the question of Honda and potentially others. If Honda really has developed a relatively simple clean diesel solution as they're leading us to believe could really be a revelation and catch the other automakers in a bind. If each of the Euro manufacturers came to market with their own engine/emission solution it would be akin to Sony's BETA, so combining resources and coming to market with one solution makes sense. But Honda's solution could be the equivalent of the DVD    Hard to predict the future, but I wouldn't be jumping on the Bluetec bandwagon if I were the CEO. May be a short-term diesel technology.

Germans unite to hype diesels
4 makers will use Bluetec to boost engine's popularity

Harald Hamprecht  |  Guido Reinking  |  Automobilwoche / October 9, 2006 - 1:00 am


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L.A. diesel debuts
German automakers are expected to show these vehicles with diesel engines at the Los Angeles auto show in December. The engines use Bluetec emissions technology.
VW Tiguan
Audi Q7
BMW X5
Mercedes-Benz R, M and GL class
Jeep Grand Cherokee
 
MUNICH, Germany -- Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen are forming an alliance to make their new diesel engines more popular in the United States.

The alliance, the first for the four brands, will use the Bluetec emissions treatment system developed by Bosch and Mercedes-Benz. They plan to offer it under the Bluetec trade name and show several Bluetec-equipped vehicles at the Los Angeles auto show in December.

While about half of the new cars in western Europe have diesel engines, the figure is only 2 percent in the United States. Diesels have a poor image in America because of their history as being loud, sluggish and environmentally unfriendly. Bluetec is supposed to change that - and to help German automakers battle the popularity of hybrid powertrains.

The Bluetec system is a suite of technologies that includes traps and filters and urea injection. Urea systems shoot an ammonialike acid into the exhaust pipes, radically reducing oxides of nitrogen.

BMW CEO Norbert Reithofer and DaimlerChrysler CEO Dieter Zetsche are expected to work out

the final details of the alliance this week. Audi chief Martin Winterkorn and VW brand chief Wolfgang Bernhard reportedly have agreed to the project already.

The alliance partners are expected to announce the plan within two weeks.

Bluetec diesels meet the highest emissions standards in the United States. The diesel alliance sees an advantage in marketing the system under a common brand name, Bluetec, as well as economies of scale in purchasing. Bosch provides major modules for the Bluetec system.

During the Los Angeles auto show, Dec. 1-10, the alliance plans to present its first Bluetec models to the public. Industry sources say VW will present its new compact SUV, the Tiguan, with Bluetec.

Reportedly, Audi will show the Q7 and BMW the new X5 with Bluetec. Mercedes wants to exhibit the R, M and GL classes. DaimlerChrysler's Jeep brand is expected to show the Grand Cherokee with a Bluetec engine.

These models will be brought to market in 2008, one year after Bin 5 emission rules go into effect in the United States. 

[sirAQUAMAN64]

OPINION

Bluetec alliance will help us all evaluate diesels

Automotive News / October 12, 2006 - 3:10 pm
 
It's a bold stroke for Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volks-wagen to work together to make their new diesel engines more popular in the United States.

Now that ultralow sulfur diesel fuel is available nationwide, the four brands will use the Bluetec emissions treatment system developed by Mercedes-Benz and Bosch. And they will use the Bluetec brand name to market their respective products.

The result should be wider consumer awareness and acceptance. It also may accelerate the development of a dis-tribution network to make urea -- the chemical used in Bluetec-powered vehicles to curtail oxides of nitrogen, or NOx, emissions -- as readily available as windshield washer fluid.

North American consumers need to know more about modern diesels, which get 30 percent better fuel economy than gasoline engines.

Bluetec is but one of several interesting and emerging diesel technologies.

Honda Motor Co.'s newly introduced diesel powertrain uses advanced engine controls and a new type of catalytic converter that Honda says can make a diesel engine burn as cleanly as a gasoline engine.

Meanwhile, General Motors and Ford Motor Co. are working quietly on emissions and fuel-injection technologies that will allow them to put diesels in any of their vehicles.

Ultimately, the marketplace must decide which diesel technologies prevail. But even if Bluetec doesn't, the joint marketing efforts by the German automakers will make it easier for consumers to evaluate diesel engines. It's a good idea for automakers to join together to promote promising technologies.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

Automakers scrap diesel plans

Richard Truett
Automotive News
June 29, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

Mainstream carmakers have put the brakes on nine diesel-powered vehicles that had been scheduled for 2010.

Honda (Acura TSX), Chrysler (Ram 1500), Ford (F-150), General Motors (DMAX 4.5L), Nissan (Maxima and Titan) and Toyota (Tundra and Sequia) have halted diesel programs because of spiraling costs and other problems.

Financial problems halted the programs at some companies. Others, like Toyota Motor Corp., are looking elsewhere for fuel economy. "We are banking heavily on hybrids," said Toyota spokesman Curt McAllister.

Only German automakers — Volkswagen, Audi, Mercedes-Benz and BMW — have followed through with plans to launch U.S. diesels on time. Most German diesels are in premium vehicles similar to vehicles built in large numbers for Europe and other markets. That volume reduces development and production costs per vehicle.

A diesel engine typically delivers fuel economy 20 to 30 percent better than that of a gasoline engine. But a diesel can add between $3,000 and $8,000 to a vehicle's price. Costly components include the turbocharger, the high-pressure fuel injection system and the complex emissions system, which is filled with precious metals. That cost seems to be a barrier for the mass-market brands.

Still, the new German diesels are selling well. The price of diesel fuel may be a factor. It has dropped from its high last summer of $4.85 per gallon — considerably more than gasoline — to $2.63 last week, a few pennies less than a gallon of regular gasoline.
 
'Cost-benefit' problem

Bernd Bohr, chairman of the automotive group at Germany's Robert Bosch GmbH, knows costs have to come down. Bosch, the world's largest supplier of diesel fuel injection systems, supplies all the new German diesel-powered vehicles in the United States.

"It's always a question of the cost-benefit relationship," Bohr told Automotive News recently.

Just one part of some diesels' emissions system — urea injection — can add $1,000 to the cost of the vehicle. A turbocharger, high-pressure fuel injection system and diesel particulate filter pump up the price, too.

Bohr said Bosch is attacking the cost problem in at least two areas: reducing the amount of oxides of nitrogen, or NOx, produced in the engine — which means a smaller amount of expensive precious metals are needed in the emissions system — and standardizing parts for larger production runs.

Bohr thinks manufacturers eventually will be able to sell vehicles with six-cylinder diesel engines of about 3.0 liters profitably and in high volumes in the United States.

"Maybe some of the projects our customers had in the past, maybe V-8s, were a little oversized in today's world," he said. "They are now looking at six-cylinders, maybe 3.0-liter diesel engines. That could be something very much worthwhile for the American market."
 
Bias toward hybrids?

Kevin McMahon, a partner at the Martec Group, a consulting firm, says the way the EPA calculates fuel economy and carbon dioxide standards gives gasoline-electric hybrids an unfair advantage over diesels.

In 2006, the EPA revised the way it determines real-world, "window sticker" fuel economy to reflect U.S. driving patterns. The EPA's new sticker rulemaking assumes Americans drive 43 percent of their miles in city conditions and 57 percent on the highway.

But under fleet average standards for corporate average fuel economy and CO2, vehicles are certified using 35-year-old test weighting of 55 percent city and 45 percent highway driving.

"Diesel vehicles that perform very well at high-load and high-speed driving — where most of America's fuel is used in the real world — are penalized," says McMahon. "Meanwhile, vehicles that perform very well in stop-and-go driving, like hybrids, are overrewarded."

The image of the diesel engine may be one reason Toyota has halted its plans. Says McAllister: "One of the obstacles of the diesel is the aged perception that the diesel is smoky and stinky. It's hard to change the mind-set of consumers. Hybrid technology has such a clean halo to it."

[Honda Owner]

I love diesels, too, but I have to question the cost of a complex diesel system when compared to just buying a gasoline car. For example, let's say a diesel fit were available at a cost of (a low ball estimate) $2000 more than the gasoline motor. It uses 30% less fuel than the gasoline car.

I will spend approximately $1000 (probably less) on gasoline for the fit to drive 10,000 km a year.

To drive the same diesel fit will cost $300 less, saving me 3 cents a km.

To save the $2,000, I am looking at just under seven years' driving and that is assuming diesel prices stay as low as they are now. But the diesel will have higher maintenance costs. Add two extra oil changes a year plus the "ad blue" and you are looking at another (at least) $150 a year. This halves your savings and raises the payback to 13-14 years. It is not worth it.

I also note that diesels tend to be sold in rather expensive vehicles. People who can afford an M Class SUV really aren't much worried about fuel prices, methinks. Same goes for a Jetta TDI. It will take over a decade to recoup the costs. Few people keep a car that long.

[tpl]

The size of diesel that would go in a Fit would probably not require AdBlue.  I.e a 1.4litre turbo producing maybe 100 bhp and 200 lbs-ft.

[Shnak]

Same goes for a Jetta TDI. It will take over a decade to recoup the costs. Few people keep a car that long.

If you only drive 10k a year, you don't buy a diesel. If you buy 25-30k a year, then a diesel makes a lot more sense.

And besides, fuel efficiency is only one of many benefits diesel brings to the table...

[airbalancer]

The size of diesel that would go in a Fit would probably not require AdBlue.  I.e a 1.4litre turbo producing maybe 100 bhp and 200 lbs-ft.

The engine in the Jetta/Golf 2L does not have AdBlue