CD Article: 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid

[H-IMA]

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[Jameel]

Actually, I did on a previous post.

1- The amount of energy required to produce a hybrid vehicle is definetly larger than that of a traditional powertrain.  Both Honda and Toyota have aluded to that.  How much larger?  According to them, designing, procuring, manufacturing, retooling and assembly of the vehicles is (at the moment) not a challenge anymore.  In part because of the close relationship each of the manufacturers have with their suppliers.  In order to make up for the extra energy and resources both Honda and Toyota have improved their processes to offset the extra impact on the bottom financial and environmental lines.  I recall having reviewed the actual figures several times - I will definitely seek them again and publish them. 
In fact, both Honda and Toyota have announced the retooling of a lot of their assembly plants throughout the world some of these to take place here in North America - all while receiving awards and recognition for environmental and manufacturing efficiencies.  According to them, they actually make money on hybrids now (they did not in the first years) and the demand for the vehicles far outstrips the production capacity.  Because of this, many people wait for their Prius for several months (sometimes 6 or more).  I waited for my hybrid for a full month.  Both manufacturers are well aware of the impact on resources and have therefore taken steps to widthstand that level of scrutiny by getting their act in order before ramping up production as they are now.

2- Good point.  According to Honda, the 1.3 liter engine is a technology ICE platform specifically designed to mate to their IMA system.  It is still evolving (currently in its 4th generation) and it is possible that they will adapt some of its features to their gas only engines.  For now however, despite its "advanced" status, its performance curve is very poor at the low RPM end without electric assist - in other words - a real dog.

3- Darn right it will.  In fact, many European countries including Japan will be requiring that all new vehicles on their roads sport at least this autostop-restart feature in the future.  Some companies in Japan already offer kits that add their feature to many gas only engine currently on the road. This feature alone can improve the fuel economy by at most 10% for most vehicles.  GM implemented that on their Saturn Vue Hybrid (they call it BAS).

4- Not quite.  Yes, the IMA can maintain the speed of the vehicle to extend a coast condition - often described as gliding with EV-assist.  However, its main benefit is to provide the much needed low end torque to the gas engine.  This is pretty evident when accellerating from a stop.  Without the IMA the car is also a stressfull if not frustrating experience when accellerating at speed as well.


And last, Yes.  It requires some "extra" energy.  However, on that state, the gas engine is virtually frictionless because the valves close and the pumping losses are reduced to a barelly measurable minimum.  Again, that is one of the features the other Honda engines do not possess - a very (almost impercetible) low friction profile which is aided by the use of special blends of high-strenght and low friction metals and piston ionic rings ... along with the mandatory 0W20 oil of course.


Cheers;

  MS

1. It doesn't matter how close a relationship the manufacturers have with their suppliers, those are still extra "things" (electric motors / batteries) being created.  No matter how efficient or how close to the suppliers you get.

I guess we can argue this point until we are blue in the face and it still wouldn’t solve anything.

2. I guess we some-what agree on this point.  I agree that a 1.3L Civic with no electric motor assist would be a “dog”.  BUT, people interested in fuel economy or price don’t care too much about performance (at least I think so).

3. Well that’s good to know and hear.  I didn’t know there was a mandate for this.

You last point, no matter how efficient you make it you can never get rid of the friction.  You can’t get anything for free, not even from Physics.

[tpl]

I just do not see the point of driving a giant laptop battery around when if our legislators would pay attention we could have a nice simple   turbo diesel in a civic and attain quite close to the hybrids economy with 1/2 the complexity.

i am sure that the engineers at Honda have done a great job on the Hybrid but I will stick with a simpler conventional gas engine until I am allowed to buy a modern clean diesel.

I just checked and the Honda Civic diesel is a 2l

Model     Honda Civic 2.2 i-CDTi EX
Engine type   2204cc, four cylinders in line
Power/Torque 138bhp @ 4000rpm / 251 lb ft @ 2000rpm
Transmission Six-speed manual
Fuel/CO2    53.3mpg (combined cycle) / 135g/km of CO2
Performance  0-62mph: 8.6sec / Top speed: 127mph

The combined cycle fule economy is a mix, dont know what, of city, 90kph and 120kph

Sorry but :
First of all most consumer electronics (including laptops) use Lithium IOn batteries which despite having excellent energy density have a much lower life span.  Today's hybrid vehicles are equipped with Nickel-Metal Hydride which are designed and used to last the life of the vehicle.

Second, CO2 is not the only substance of concern-especially for Diesels. No diesel vehicle currently in existence is suitable for operation on all the US states because until the manufacturers come up with a suitable Urea or Plasma based technology to clean up the emissions those vehicles will not be considered green competition for economy hybrid vehicles. 

Honda has indicated that it intends to adopt diesel for some of its vehicles for North America (as it has done already in Europe). However, that will not happen until their Diesel technology can match the cleanliness of their gas PZEV offerings in North America.  I hope they (and other manufacturers) manage to clean up their diesel fleets. Indeed, Diesels do offer a significant fuel economy benefit but not in North America.  Our diesel fuel is sub par and that too has the be cleaned up as well.  Until then, comparing any diesel vehicle to current hybrid technology will remain wishful thinking since fuel economy is not all that diesels need to meet to be viable.

After most manufacturers are done cleaning their diesel fleets (especially those that wish to sell in north america) their diesels will be significantly more complex than what their are today.  In fact, some manufactureres have indicated that the best setup is to have a clean diesel mated to a hybrid powertrain.  How's that for irony.  Wether we acept it or not, Hybrids are here to stay and they will gradually permeate into the general automotive landscape.  Its just a matter of time my friend.  Just a matter of time.


Cheers;


  MS

OK  whatever battery technology works. 

I dont care about the US emission standards and even less about the 5 states where even Bluetec is not enough. I argue that we, Canada, should have our own standards that allow for our tiny population and just the 3-4 cities where air pollution is a sometime problem.
The fact that if we did that, you might not be able to take your car to the USA if you were going to live there ( as distinct from a trip) is immaterial to probably 99% of the population. Canada might, for instance choose to allow the EU and USA standards to co-exist. I suspect maybe that, say, Honda Canada, would make USA spec gas and hybrid cars and EU spec diesels.  VW would import likewise.  I remain to be convinced that it would make any appreciable ( as distinct from theoretical) difference to the air quality in Canadian cities if this approach was taken.

Our diesel fuel is only "sub par " as you put it until Oct 1 when we go to the 15-30ppm at the pump... and of course once you are at 15-30 ppm most of the new diesels will have no problem with it.

I take the point about a hybrid with a diesel and agree with you... but it looks as if unless there is an emissions exemption for that powertrain it is unlikely to happen.

anyway. It is a nice discussion.

[safristi]

For the TENTH time of asking ...explain for ME why are we subsidising HYBRIDS with TAX MONIES.........in Ont and 2 other KNOW NOTHING Provinces...!!!

[H-IMA]

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[H-IMA]

For the TENTH time of asking ...explain for ME why are we subsidising HYBRIDS with TAX MONIES.........in Ont and 2 other KNOW NOTHING Provinces...!!!

Who knows.  They are politicians aren't they? 

I for one, would prefer vehicles to be taxed on displacement and # of cylinders rather that offering incentives through tax breaks.  The Europeans (and most of the world) have done that quite successfully and they enjoy better technologies that can better widthstand the challenges of the future.  In order for someone to avoid the taxes they have to prove that it is just not a commercial/professional/farm vehicle but that it is trully needed for the task.

Now that (among other tricks) would not only save gas but also contribute to less polution and would make the hybrid options look more like over-priced toys (as they do now in Europe).

Oh well...  its just my stupid opinion.

[H-IMA]

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[Arthur Dent]

I for one, would prefer vehicles to be taxed on displacement and # of cylinders rather that offering incentives through tax breaks. 

That is not a great system of figuring out if a car is clean or efficent. Torque rich pushrod engine with a larger displacement may have much better fuel economy/emissions that a highly tuned OHC engine depending on the circumstances (a truck application springs to mind right away).

[H-IMA]

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[tpl]

displacement and # of cylinders... hmmmm... we'll be back to "fiscal horsepower" next.

I think a possible way might be specific output bhp/cc at a given emission level.... engines designed for that might not be compatible with slushbox automatics which might be a good thing in itself IMHO

[H-IMA]

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[Prius]

I know there are those who said drop the batteries and give us the car with the same engine (e.g. the GS450h...  Jeremy Clarkson said he wondered how it'll peform without the batteries and electric motors... well it's called the GS350, why doesn't he give one a shot?).

Anyway, the Civic CDTi still doesn't achieve the same mileage as the Civic Hybrid. It gets 5.3L/100km combined whereas the HCH here is rated at 4.5L/100km combined. It's also putting out 135g/km of CO2. A Prius which is larger and heavier puts out 105g/km of CO2.

Hybrids have been around for nearly 9 years (Dec 97 was when the first Prius was introduced in Japan) and actually those first Priuses are using D-cell type batteries, not the NiMH ones used in current hybrids. North America's highest mileage hybrid is a 2001 Prius cab (Empress Taxi) with 410,000kms. Andrew Grant of Yellow Cab has his 2001 Prius service report available online for download. He changed his front brakes at 147,000kms and his rear brakes at 300,000+ before Toyota took the car back for analysis. Not to mention no starter/alternator or power steering fluid. Battery cost was last quoted at US$2,1xx. I've posted it somewhere on this forum this past summer I believe.

Come to think of it, that Civic diesel is faster than the Jetta TDI and more efficient. Jeez Honda, bring it over too!

Lastly, yes Jill said that you'd have to learn to drive a hybrid and yes that's if you wish to get the maximum fuel efficiency possible for your commute route. Driven normally, you'd still get better mileage than the regular Civic but the difference won't be as great. I know cause I have talked to several Prius owners who are NOT mileage fanatics and are in fact regular people who just wanted a hybrid. Their mileage is "horrible" at 5.6L/100km in the summer while mine's down at 4.5L/100km on avg (got down to 4.2 once on my record tank). That's a big difference.

[H-IMA]

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[wing]

Depends what the goal of her "research" was.  Was it to get the best mileage she could?  Or was it to drive it normally and see what it would get.  Both are valid.  Most people won't change driving habits, I know I would certainly resist it.  But when my goal is incredible gas mileage I would do it to try. 

I typically give up the low mileage attempts after awhile, it gets boring and the cost difference doesn't bother me much.

[Prius]

IMA, I actually post on www.spritmonitor.de It's a German site since it allows me to post my mileage in my signature using their html code.

Wing, ya it does depend. 6L/100km isn't actually bad considering that's what most 'normal' folk get with the Prius and HCH anyway. It's still better than the 8.5-9.0 that they'll get with a regular Civic.

But the thing about hybrid is that there's a greater potential to get great mileage with slight changes in driving style. No one said you had to be a mileage nut and hold up traffic. If anything, driving on the battery alone on the Prius HURTS fuel mileage cause the engine will have to eventually charge up (unless you intend to go down a hill later and that's also assuming you're good at regenerating and can apply the brake pedal such that you can get maximum current running to the battery before it switches to friction braking).

I know a friend of a friend of mine who drives the Prius like a sports car with no regards to mileage whatsoever. His average is 8.0! Same car, different driving style. Those in Alberta can drop it to 4.0 because of their flatter lands.

[H-IMA]

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[HCHx2]

I purchased 2 Honda Civic Hybrids earlier this year and they are great.   I received $2,000 back from the Ontario goverment (Retail Tax refund).  Both cars have now over 17,000 km and all I have done is a $30 oil change on each.    Our gas consumption has been reduced to less than half, with our previous 2 cars (BMW 325xi and Acura TL) we were getting 11 Lt/100km with premium gas.   The HCHs get us so far around 5 Lt/100km with regular gas.
We drove one of the cars from Toronto to Miami, visited Disney World, Washington and New York in our way back.  The car drives fine in hot or cold weather.
My recommendation to anyone considering this car is to ignore the opinions of people that don't own the car.  The best way to decide is to test drive one.   There is a lot of wrong information circulating, for some reason Hybrids upset a lot of people and businesses.
We are four drivers at home and after 6 months of owning the Hybrids we agree that these cars are the best we had so far.  Economical and fun to drive! 

[safristi]

A 2007 Euro Spec Diesel(and a Hybrid diesel wood!! make U Plotz) would beat the pants off Hybrids that ..YOU owners ALL fail to GRASP are Subsidized to the HILT in Production..(they admit to a $3K loss per car prolly double THAT)..the Battery Issue is always Minimized WHY!!!....lionized by the Press...TAX.RE_BATED on the backs of the REST OF US.. OUTRAGEOUS Gov BOONDOGGLE....are boring to DRIVE..and worse to look at..WOTS NOT TO HATE!!!! Oh and NOW many of the "Hybrids" are Faster but less Fuel efficient...so..so LONG it's been good ta be HAD U.....

[H-IMA]

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[safristi]

Ima-Man more like a Girlie HYBRID wanna Be stroked for yer wonderful choice on behlalf of Al Gore's EGO maniaical MOOFIE........just "HOT AIR" conjecture and falsehoods BUT hey what do I KNOW...meet ya in St Loius in 10 YEARS ..guess who is RIGHT on the MONEY............   Oh and ENJOY my TAX free $2,000 ya smug  freeloader........PS I hear the Sierra Club is short a coupla CUCKOOS...donate IT......