Topic: Alternatives to a TSX - your advice - update: *deal done*

[Julie]

Oct. 21, 2006: Last update to this first page: I have bought the TSX. I did not (as I'm sure many predicted  ) go through my entire short-list. I tested a few vehicles (Subaru Legacy GT, Lexus IS 250, Acura TL, BMW 325i), but pulled the trigger on the TSX today. Posts about the purchase start here: http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,47843.msg315179.html#msg315179
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EDIT: I'll be regularly condensing the list throughout the thread and adding it here, in the 1st post, so that you can have a quick summary of my "to test" list to date, so you can quickly see if I'm missing any car you think should be considered. Thanks everyone!!

p.s. If I don't keep your suggestion on my list - you'll get an explanation why.


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List to date, in alphabetical order: (2006 MSRPs total price before taxes (unless indicated otherwise), with automatic transmission)

n.b. for used cars - 1-2 years only

Acura TL (2007 model) (Canadian price as yet unknown) - Handling not as good as TSX, and suspension a little less forgiving.
Acura TSX (2007 model) (Canadian price as yet unknown; 2006 model = $38,630.00)
Acura TSX (2008 model) (Temple of VTEC's best guess = RDX's turbo motor + SH-AWD)
Audi A3 2.0T (+ DSG + premium package + cold weather package + rear side air bags + bi-xenon headlights) ($40,400) - decided against VW/Audi for reliability issues
Audi A4 2.0T (+ convenience package + sunroof + rear side air bags) ($40,710) - decided against VW/Audi for reliability issues
BMW 325i (2004-2005 E46)
BMW 330i (2004-2005 E46)
Cadillac CTS - eliminated because list is balloning and styling among least liked
Ford Fusion V6, 3.0L - - eliminated because list is balloning and styling among least liked
Ford Fusion V6, 3.5L - - eliminated because list is balloning and styling among least liked
Infiniti G35 (2005-2006)
Lexus IS 250 (+ premium leather package) ($41,400 + $ for auto tranny)
Lexus IS 250 AWD (+ premium leather package) ($45,600)
Lexus IS 350, used - price getting too high
MazdaSpeed3 - would like slightly larger car
MazdaSpeed6 - would eat TSX for breakfast, but want more smoothness/refinement
Mazda6, SportWagon - want more smoothness/refinement
Nissan Altima SE - eliminated because list is balloning and styling among least liked
Nissan Altima SE-R - eliminated because list is balloning and styling among least liked
Nissan Maxima - - eliminated because list is balloning, big car, and styling among least liked
Saab 9-3 - Reliability is poor, according to Consumers Reports
Saturn Aura XR - eliminated because list is balloning and exterior looks among least liked
Subaru Legacy GT, sedan (base MSRP: $36,795) - will get Legacy wagon or Outback if buying Subaru
Subaru Legacy GT LTD, sedan (base MSRP: $40,295) - will get Legacy wagon or Outback if buying Subaru
Subaru Legacy GT LTD, wagon (base MSRP: $41,795)
Subaru Outback XT (approx. 44 thousand for 2007 model)
Subaru WRX, sedan ($35,495) - prefer larger size/refinement of Legacy GT
Subaru WRX, Sportwagon ($35,495) - prefer larger size/refinement of Legacy GT
Volvo S40 T5 - eliminated because list is balloning and styling among least liked
VW Jetta 2.0T (+ DSG + premium luxury package + side curtain and rear air bags + HID) (36,095) - decided against VW/Audi for reliability issues
VW Jetta GLI (+ DSG) (available starting Spring 2007) - decided against VW/Audi for reliability issues
VW Passat 2.0T (+ luxury-leather package + Bi-Xenon Headlights w/AFS & Washer System + Rear Side Airbags) ($39,995) - decided against VW/Audi for reliability issues

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Original post:

Hi everyone,

As you probably know, me = recent auto nut.

And I'd like to keep my next car for a long time. I know... you'd be justified at laughing at me, me who has 2 newish cars and is talking about buying another one. But I used to keep them for as long as I could (except my last Corolla, which I changed after 5 years because of no air = that still bothers me to this day that I changed it after only 5 years.)
 
I will most likely be purchasing a car in 2007. But I want to start looking casually, so that I can give myself ample time to really know all the options out there, and test, re-test, sleep on it for while, etc. I'm prone to being impatient, and I really want to avoid an impulse buy this time.

Since Honda was the impetus behind my recent conversion to car enthusiast, Acuras caught my eye quickly. Plus, it's japanese, and we've always bought japanese...

But I keep hearing about the fun to drive factor of Subarus and VWs, among others. I don't want to close my mind to those.

Here are my priorities - EDIT: not in any particular order, except the fun-to-drive one. That is the only reason I would be willing to give up my beloved Camry...... that I can't stand driving now. 

1) Fun to drive.

2) At least a sedan. We will keeping our Civic Coupe, and need a 4-door in case kids come along, and just for our frequent road trips. (I don't want to limit sedan or wagon at this moment, as I don't mind a wagon - it's more that I need "at least" a sedan.)

3) Automatic. As much as I toy with the idea of going back to stick (my first car was a stick), I travel to Toronto frequently, so hours of bumper-to-bumper traffic is a fact of life. Perhaps I'll get a used Miata down the road to satisfy my urge to experience "real" driving.... But for now, I can only afford "one" car.

4) Reliability.

5) Refinement. Some luxury. (I've worked my butt off all my life, time to reward myself.)

6) Good balance of handling/ride comfort. I'd like something a little more supple than my Civic; I found the BMW 325i and TSX rides to be fine.)

7) Enough power so that I don't have to worry at all anymore about timing my merges/passing on highways. I'm willling to sacrifice gas economy for that.

Good visibility all around.

9) Price. Less than 40 thousand. I am willing to go over a little (e.g. a couple of thousand), but trying really to stick to below 40 MSRP.

10) I would consider used, but only 1-2 years.

Sorry for the long intro, now, what should I be sure to consider? I'll do the in-depth research on the individual cars, but would like an idea which direction to go (for instance, I went on the Subaru site and looked at Legacys. But I'm wondering, should I be looking into the 2.5i or the GT, etc.)

Thanks very much! 

EDIT: I will be sure to post my impressions. Even though I'm no car expert yet, I'll be doing lots of test driving and researching, so will try and condense my findings afterwards, in case others are looking/wondering.

[dr_spock]

I drive a stick to work every day in Toronto traffic.   As long as it is a fun stick to drive, it won't be tiring or painful.

[mdxtasy]

I've been thinking.....if I were to go with a smaller entry level luxo sedan, my choices would be:

Lexus IS (350 is hot with 300hp)
Infiniti G35
Acura TSX
Acura TL
BMW 3
Audi A3

[mdxtasy]

As for driving stick, learn how to heel/toe and match revs....it's auto bliss.

[Julie]

As for driving stick, learn how to heel/toe and match revs....it's auto bliss.

I've heard that heel/toe thing - I'll research that. What's matching revs mean though?

Thanks for the list Mdx5!

[toolatecrew]

Jetta GLI with DSG.

Meets all criteria except MAYBE reliability (since its fairly new model we don't know for sure yet)

[Julie]

I drive a stick to work every day in Toronto traffic.   As long as it is a fun stick to drive, it won't be tiring or painful.

Really? Oh, that's interesting.... maybe when people aren't very good at driving stick, they find constantly starting up again more difficult...

I know I sure hated stick when starting on an incline..... Until I learned the parking brake trick.

[Julie]

Jetta GLI with DSG.

Meets all criteria except MAYBE reliability (since its fairly new model we don't know for sure yet)

Thanks for the suggestion.

I had heard about the "GLI" model, but wanted to re-confirm with the suggestions of more seasoned enthusiasts.

[dr_spock]

I drive a stick to work every day in Toronto traffic.   As long as it is a fun stick to drive, it won't be tiring or painful.

Really? Oh, that's interesting.... maybe when people aren't very good at driving stick, they find constantly starting up again more difficult...

I know I sure hated stick when starting on an incline..... Until I learned the parking brake trick.

Avoid a manual car with a heavy clutch and long throw shifter.  They'd make bumper-to-bumper tiring to drive.

Steep inclines are fun.  I get to see the worried look of drivers who stopped too close behind me as I start to roll back a bit.  I think there is something about being able to see the rear tires of the car in front of you in the basic driving course.

We should have a "take Julie to the Toronto AutoShow GTG" to help her find her next ride.   


How about a Subaru Legacy GT wagon in case of little ones?  Good visibility in a wagon with glass all around.

[Julie]

I drive a stick to work every day in Toronto traffic.   As long as it is a fun stick to drive, it won't be tiring or painful.

Really? Oh, that's interesting.... maybe when people aren't very good at driving stick, they find constantly starting up again more difficult...

I know I sure hated stick when starting on an incline..... Until I learned the parking brake trick.

Avoid a manual car with a heavy clutch and long throw shifter.  They'd make bumper-to-bumper tiring to drive.

Steep inclines are fun.  I get to see the worried look of drivers who stopped too close behind me as I start to roll back a bit.  I think there is something about being able to see the rear tires of the car in front of you in the basic driving course.

We should have a "take Julie to the Toronto AutoShow GTG" to help her find her next ride.   


How about a Subaru Legacy GT wagon in case of little ones?  Good visibility in a wagon with glass all around.

Thanks dr_spock 

What do you mean by "heavy" clutch?

[MKII]

Audi A4 2.0T, Cadillac CTS , Saab 9-3,  Volvo S40 T5, Subaru Legacy GT

[airbalancer]

First decide on sedan or wagon.
I would also throw in ragtop or hardtop.( you said 4 door but try a car that can go topless it way change your mind)
Once you decides on kind it will be easier to decide
And in the end you probably throw all reasoning out the door and go see , like it , buy it

[Julie]

First decide on sedan or wagon.
I would also throw in ragtop or hardtop.( you said 4 door but try a car that can go topless it way change your mind)
Once you decides on kind it will be easier to decide
And in the end you probably throw all reasoning out the door and go see , like it , buy it

Thanks for your tips air-balancer. I don't want to limit sedan or wagon at this moment, as I don't mind a wagon, and it's more that I need "at least" a sedan. I should add that info in my initial list.

Ragtop/Hardtop? Aren't they much more expensive compared to their non-convertible siblings?

[nightmare]

List to date, in alphabetical order:

Acura TL
Acura TSX
Audi A3, with DSG
BMW 3
Infiniti G35
Lexus IS (250 & 350)
VW Jetta GLI, with DSG

p.s. re: BMW 3 - I'd have to be looking at a 323i huh, to fall under the 40 mark, with the typical options in a BMW?

Mazda 6 will be getting the 3.5 l engine , it really is a performance bargain.

[tpl]

Certainly the DSG seems like a great compromise between a pure manual and a pure automatic ( I include CVTs as purest of all automatics)    Trouble is that limits you to VW Audi products, 2 Audis and  2 VWs at this point I think.

I am considering a DSG car for my next one.


As for the manual argument.  I, as a committed for 40 years manual driver, would agree that the combination of a heavy clutch or one with the actuation point in the wrong place AND a transmission with inappropriate 1st and 2nd gear is a pain in heavy traffic.   I think that the E46 BMW scores badly on the actuation point...I have not driven an e90 3 series long enough to opine about it.

I suspect that the Japanese contenders are more reliable than the Germans as well.

[AVToller]

A heavy clutch is one with very strong spring action - it requires a lot of effort to depress, and it presses back strongly when letting it out. This can be tiring and stressful on the knees as well.

[tpl]

Yes AV and combine that with one where your foot is off the floor at the engagement point and it is even more tiring even for people whos knees are ok.

[The Mighty Duck]

Lexus IS250 is the first car that comes to mind.  The AWD and 350 will probably be over your budget, though.  Still, very nice car to look at, Lexus quality and luxury...  yummy.  TSX is a good option, too.

Are you limiting yourself to brand new only?  A slightly used E46 BMW could be had in your price range with the more powerful engine and more options...  I do think the Caddy is worth a look, if you don't mind the styling.  The CTS has been getting very favourable reviews for being very "European" feeling on the road.

A Subaru WRX or Legacy also seems an obvious choice to look at. 

So - I don't think I've added anything to you list, but that would be my shortlist, I think.  Oh, but I'd probably add a used BMW M5...  I saw one on ebay for $30k USD. 

[Julie]

Certainly the DSG seems like a great compromise between a pure manual and a pure automatic ( I include CVTs as purest of all automatics)    Trouble is that limits you to VW Audi products, 2 Audis and  2 VWs at this point I think.

I am considering a DSG car for my next one.


As for the manual argument.  I, as a committed for 40 years manual driver, would agree that the combination of a heavy clutch or one with the actuation point in the wrong place AND a transmission with inappropriate 1st and 2nd gear is a pain in heavy traffic.   I think that the E46 BMW scores badly on the actuation point...I have not driven an e90 3 series long enough to opine about it.

I suspect that the Japanese contenders are more reliable than the Germans as well.

Actuation point: Does that mean, the point when you are releasing the clutch at which you should press on the gas pedal? What is "in the wrong place" mean for you?

Also, what is "inappropriate" 1st and 2nd gear mean for you as well?

Thanks tpl.

I think it's time for me to start researching the alternate BMW names (E46, etc.) 

[Julie]

Yes AV and combine that with one where your foot is off the floor at the engagement point and it is even more tiring even for people whos knees are ok.

Engagement point: Does that mean, at the point when you shift?