Nissan & Renault to buy 20% of GM

[MKII]

GM past and current alliances;
Fiat and Isuzu excel at diesel powertrains.
Saab makes the best turbo-charged engines in the world and is a leader in safety technology.
Fuji Heavy Industries is a leader in all-wheel drive and continuously variable transmissions.
And Suzuki excels at small gasoline engines and mini cars.
Russian automaker AvtoVAZ establish a joint venture to build a sport utility vehicle for the Russian market at a plant in Togliatti, Russia
Collaboration with Honda on internal combustion engines.(This must of pissed off Toyota!!)
With Toyota on advanced propulsion.
With Renault on medium- and heavy-duty vans for Europe.
And in the U.S. with AM General on the brand and distribution rights for the  Hummer.

If you look at the monies that GM poured out for these alliances, it is mind boggling, plus I do not think GM reaped many benefits from its spending.  Maybe now is the time to  switch gears (egos) and accept some  needed help, both financial and business savy (Ghosn) .

[articsteve]

GM past and current alliances;
Fiat and Isuzu excel at diesel powertrains.
Saab makes the best turbo-charged engines in the world and is a leader in safety technology.
Fuji Heavy Industries is a leader in all-wheel drive and continuously variable transmissions.
And Suzuki excels at small gasoline engines and mini cars.
Russian automaker AvtoVAZ establish a joint venture to build a sport utility vehicle for the Russian market at a plant in Togliatti, Russia
Collaboration with Honda on internal combustion engines.(This must of pissed off Toyota!!)
With Toyota on advanced propulsion.
With Renault on medium- and heavy-duty vans for Europe.
And in the U.S. with AM General on the brand and distribution rights for the  Hummer.

If you look at the monies that GM poured out for these alliances, it is mind boggling, plus I do not think GM reaped many benefits from its spending.  Maybe now is the time to  switch gears (egos) and accept some  needed help, both financial and business savy (Ghosn) .

Saab makes the best turbo-charged engines in the world

What world would that be 


GM's Saab recalls 400,000 cars over engine flaw STOCKHOLM (AFX) - General Motor Corp's Swedish subsidiary Saab Automobile AB said it is recalling up to 400,000 of its 9-5 and 9-3 cars worldwide due to an engine design flaw.

The company said the flaw could lead to a rapid deterioration of oil quality and damage turbo-charged engines.

'As many as 400,000 cars may be affected worldwide,' Saab (Stockholm: SAABb.ST - news) spokesman Oerjan Aaslund said, refusing to reveal how much money the company would be forced to spend on the repairs.

The company said it will issue an 8-year retroactive engine guarantee for its 1998 to 2000 9-5 models and its 2000 to 2003 9-3 models. (However the design wasnt changed until 2004 so cars up to 2004 will be vulnerable)

'The guarantee means that customers who have been affected by motor problems due to oil sludge will receive full financial compensation,' Saab said in a statement, pointing out that the purchaser of a vehicle in 1998 would still have a valid guarantee through 2006.

The car manufacturer said that about 4 pct of the 95,000 cars equipped with the engines in question circulating in Sweden appeared to have experienced problems.

'Sweden has been more affected than many other markets... mainly due to the fact that it is colder here and it takes longer for the engines to warm up,' Aaslund said.

Plus all 9-5 and 9-3's with poor or no routine maintenance or where oil specification has not been adhered to.

http://www.saabcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58536

[Panzer]

Fiat and Isuzu excel at diesel powertrains.

I thought that was VW...

Saab makes the best turbo-charged engines in the world and is a leader in safety technology.

My guess here would've been Subaru (FHI).

Fuji Heavy Industries is a leader in all-wheel drive and continuously variable transmissions.

I'd agree with the first one but I've never seen a Subie with a CVT.

And Suzuki excels at small gasoline engines and mini cars.

Having driven a Swift for 5+ years, I'd agree on this as well.

[Trainman]

The game is afoot:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/business/national/2006/07/07/gm-alliance.html

GM agrees to discuss alliance with Renault, Nissan

Last Updated Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:09:37 EDT
CBC News

The board of directors of General Motors Corp. announced Friday it has agreed to let company management begin preliminary talks on an alliance with Renault SA and Nissan Motor Co.

GM chairman Rick Wagoner will lead the company's efforts to conduct exploratory discussions.

"Given the complexity of any potential relationship, it has to be carefully considered on its merits before coming to any conclusion," Wagoner said in a statment.

Earlier this week, the boards of France's Renault and Nissan of Japan said they had both agreed to discuss a possible alliance with GM — but only if the floundering U.S. giant made the first move.

The possible alliance came to light on June 30 when billionaire U.S. investor Kirk Kerkorian announced that he had written letters to the boards of the three companies suggesting the idea.

In his letter to GM, Kerkorian said he urged the Detroit automaker to "immediately and fully explore this opportunity together with management" as it could help GM "realize substantial synergies and cost savings and thereby greatly benefit the company and enhance shareholder value."

Kerkorian's investment company, Tracinda Corp., is GM's fourth biggest shareholder, with a 9.9 per cent interest. Renault owns a 44.4 per cent stake in Nissan, which in turn owns a 15 per cent stake in Renault. The French government owns 15 per cent of Renault.

[Trainman]

Opinon piece from CBC:

Full article here (it is long): http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/realitycheck/20060707sheppard.html

INDEPTH: REALITY CHECK

Is America's carmaker up for brie and sushi?

CBC News Online | July 7, 2006 |

By Robert Sheppard.  Robert Sheppard began his career at the Montreal Star (may it rest in peace), spent 22 years at the Globe and Mail and was recently senior editor at Maclean's magazine. He has co-authored a book on the Canadian Constitution and writes on a variety of subjects.


The board of General Motors is to get together today to explore what can be called a truly earth-spanning alliance with French automaker Renault and Japan's Nissan. But as it is a conference call the directors will be making, it will be impossible to know if anyone is munching any sushi on the side, or even a little brie in their cheese sandwich.

A few years ago, it would have been impossible to contemplate such realignment at the very heart of America's automotive industry. Because of their strong opposition to the war in Iraq, the French were routinely vilified in the States as cheese-eating surrender monkeys, while the Japanese were the ones who destroyed America's car supremacy, showing it up at its own game.

Even as recently as a few months ago, GM CEO Rick Wagoner was blaming his company woes on "unfair" Japanese trade practices, that Japan won't easily let U.S.-made cars into its domestic market — as if that had anything to do with the choices North American consumers have been making these past few decades.

.....

[AVToller]

"... but I've never seen a Subie with a CVT."

The Justy had CVT back in the early '90s. It worked very well, but was extremely expensive to repair when it went wrong.

[Wolfe]

"... but I've never seen a Subie with a CVT."

The Justy had CVT back in the early '90s. It worked very well, but was extremely expensive to repair when it went wrong.

That's Phil Bailey's complaint about CVTs as well.

I would not buy a car, especially a small inexpensive one like the Versa of Caliber, with a CVT since after only a few years a significant CVT repair could easily cost more than the car is worth.  

I would hope that in any alliance GM stays away from Nissan's CVT technology.

[smainville]

Prius, Civic hybrid, Ford 500, Caliber, Murano all use a cvt, next the Versa, Sentra, Altima, Maxima will use it.  Kinda looks like the future to me, appears to be simpler from my understanding of things.  BTW some companies still don't have the traditional auto tranny down path, Japanese, Korean and NA included   So honestly I don't give 2 shites what Bailey's says or any other auto journalist for that matter, too many talk through their arses

[a4_tom]

Mr.Kenzie thinks CVT is the "tranny of future" when Audi introduced Multitronic in 2002 A4.

[smainville]

Mr.Kenzie thinks CVT is the "tranny of future" when Audi introduced Multitronic in 2002 A4.

oops, forgot that Audi had them too, but agree.

[Wolfe]

Prius, Civic hybrid, Ford 500, Caliber, Murano all use a cvt, next the Versa, Sentra, Altima, Maxima will use it. Kinda looks like the future to me, appears to be simpler from my understanding of things. BTW some companies still don't have the traditional auto tranny down path, Japanese, Korean and NA included So honestly I don't give 2 shites what Bailey's says or any other auto journalist for that matter, too many talk through their arses

Well xtrail1 I don't want to get into a big debate on CVTs vs traditional autoboxes and I agree that we will be seeing more and more CVTs in the future.

I personally drive manual and prefer it. My big concern at the moment is the disappearance of manual transmission options.

What gives me pause about CVTs especially in inexpensive cars would be the potential to have say a five or six year old Versa (just for the sake of arguement not to pick on Nissan) that is out of warranty and has a failure of the CVT. If the repair ends up costing alot (more than that for a traditional auto) then the repair could end up costing more than the value of the car. It would be a shame to be faced with the choice of paying more than your car is worth to get it working again or scrapping an otherwise good car with much of its useful life left. My main reservation about CVTs would be in the potential cost of repair. There are simply not as many people who can fix a CVT as a traditional auto menaing you are very dependant on the dealer. The costs of repair will likely come down in the future but I would like to wait and see this happen before owning a car with a CVT myself or recommending one to someone else. I would hate to recommend a car with a CVT to someone and have them get stuck with a bill for $8-10k a few years later should something go wrong.

As far as simplicity goes, all transmissions are pretty complicated. Simple in theory: two cogs, belt and pully etc. but in practice they are very sophisticated. Considerations of load capacity, light weight and size all must be carefully balanced.

As far as your concern about some companies having problems with traditional autos goes I will simply quote Barrie that "no one has built the perfect car yet." 

And I like the fact that Bailey actually runs a garage and thus sees the auto industry from a different perspective than most other auto journalists. That said I take all blogger's opinions with a grain of salt.


CVTs do have some definite advantages and may someday replace other auto transmissions. For now I'm just taking a wait and see approach. I'm enjoying changing my own gears too much to drive an auto of any kind at this point in my life.   



And incidentally GM has used CVTs themselves recently with Saturn and it wasn't a particularly successful experience. The Jatco ones are supposed to be much better.

[a4_tom]

I haven't heard of any quality problems with Nissan's Xtronic CVTs in market where it already available for a couple of years. In JDM-derived markets, almost all Nissans have replaced traditional torque converter autos with Xtronic: Cefiro, Tiida, Lafesta, Skyline, Primera and Presage all equipped with Xtronic and none of them have quality issues.

[safristi]

CVT's have had several "lives"...re_incarnations whatever...BUT ...like Hybrids and their batteries...I side with Phil Bailey ( an ex Racer who has a garage we all would like to be near) is an Independent Voice and sees the "troubles that new stuff brings"...on a daily basis...and more importantly the cost of fixing these "gizmos" when they go kaput......


      It's a bigger version of the thread on  automatic tyre pressure sensors....yup nice ..but as Morty says many will cost big $$$'s to fix......

   Personally I say let some other "FOOLS" be the Guinea PIGS...........if they prove to be an IM+PROVE_MENT.....then we can all jump inna pool when the sharks are tamed..........Capice.....

[Trainman]

I haven't heard of any quality problems with Nissan's Xtronic CVTs in market where it already available for a couple of years. In JDM-derived markets, almost all Nissans have replaced traditional torque converter autos with Xtronic: Cefiro, Tiida, Lafesta, Skyline, Primera and Presage all equipped with Xtronic and none of them have quality issues.

Nissans AT's (at least in the Pathfinder) typically fail at about the 225-275,000 km mark, so with the CTV's only out for a few years, there is not enough km on them to see how reliable they are.

I'm with Saf on this, let others be on the bleeding edge, I will take proven technology until the new stuff has a few more km's under its belt.

[a4_tom]

Nissan Xtronic, as with Audi's Multitronic, first came out in X-Trail in 2002. Almost 5 years after introduced to the market, in some harsh climate like Australia, Xtronic X-Trail SR20VET, still pretty reliable.

[safristi]

"almost" don't CUT IT....when in 2002? and it's only  half way thru 2006..barely 4 years maybe???....so they only have 80,000 to 100,000 clicks on most of the Trannies......and HOW many in OZ....25??? ...call us back at 125,000 clicks and UP and with a sample of 50,000 or so.................. ...and MOST IMPORTANTLY some REBUILD IN_VOICES inna WILDERNESS......this is flying Dr. ta BRUCE    yeah BRUCE looks like the TRANNIE is WOOLAMALOO mate..OK BRUCE ken ya CALL BRUCE over at WALLAWALLABINGBONG fer a TOW...ask him ta send out BRUCE  the  younger son I hate his older one BRUCE he's an arsehole..OK BRUCE over and OUT give my regards to BRUCE the BUTCHER,BRUCE the CANDLEMAKER and BRUCE THE MASTERBAKER...righty oh BRUCE,......

[MKII]

New automobiles equipped with CVT
Audi A4 2.0/1.8T/2.4/3.0/2.5 TDI
Audi A6 2.0/1.8T/2.4/3.0/2.5 TDI
Dodge Caliber
Fiat Punto 1.2L
Ford Escape Hybrid 2.3L 4 cyl
Ford Five Hundred 3.0L 6 cyl
Ford Focus C-MAX 1.6L TDCi 110 PS
Ford Freestyle 3.0L 6 cyl
Honda Civic HX 1.7 4 cyl
Honda Civic Hybrid 1.3L 4 cyl
Honda City 1.5L
Honda HR-V 1.6L
Honda Insight 1.0L 3 cyl
Honda Jazz 1.4L / Honda Fit 1.3L/1.5L
Lexus GS450h 3.5L 6 cyl
Lexus RX400h 3.3L 6 cyl
Mercedes-Benz A-Class
Mercedes-Benz B-Class
Mercury Montego AWD 3.0L 6 cyl
Mitsubishi Colt 1.5L MIVEC 4 cyl with INVECS-III CVT (Asian-Oceanian version only, 72 kW)
Mitsubishi Lancer 1.6L/1.8L MIVEC 4 cyl with INVECS-III CVT (Asian version only)
MG - TF
BMW MINI One and Cooper.
Nissan Altima (2007-)
Nissan Cube
Nissan Micra 1.0L/1.3L
Nissan Murano 3.5L
Nissan Primera 2.0L
Nissan Sentra (2007-)
Nissan Serena 2.0L
Nissan Skyline GT-8
Nissan Tiida / Versa
Opel Vectra 1.8L
Rover 25
Rover 45
Rover Streetwise
Saturn ION Quad Coupe (2003-2004)
Saturn VUE 2.2L AWD (2002-2005), 2.2 FWD (2002-2004)
Toyota Highlander Hybrid 3.3L 6 cyl
Toyota Camry Hybrid 2.4L 4 cyl
Toyota Prius 1.5L 4 cyl
 

[a4_tom]

Many impressive cars come optional with CVT.

[Trainman]

New automobiles equipped with CVT
Audi A4 2.0/1.8T/2.4/3.0/2.5 TDI
Audi A6 2.0/1.8T/2.4/3.0/2.5 TDI
Dodge Caliber
...

etc

Do not see a lot of vehicles that may get used in tough going, like SUV's or pickup trucks, in that list.

I really like the idea, always have, but just not sure it is ready for prime time use in Canada’s climate over the long haul.  Hope they all work out, then I can get one 

[AVToller]

  I'm just now getting used to driving automatic after 35+ years of manual, but ever since I first heard of CVT in the Justy (I know it was around before that) back in 1991, I thought that it was the way to go IF it became proven, reliable technology. If the Yaris had been available with CVT as it is in Japan, it would have been a VERY difficult decision for me whether to go with that or the 4-speed. If I ever replace the Yaris, I strongly suspect it will be with a CVT equipped car.