Topic: Int. Man. problem again?

[21Rouge]

Just need some advice:

I have a 2000 Montana with about 110, 000 km. I have had it since new.

I will need to check my records but the dealer 'fixed' the IM just prior to the warranty (3 year/60 k km) expiring....say around 55 000 km.

This past week I got back a Used Oil Analysis which hinted at a coolant leak into the oil.
I checked under the oil cap today and see a very light colour, tan colour film on the underside.

I see *no* loss of coolant in the fill reservoir. So if there is a leak it is a small one.

I want to understand this  better. What diagnostic test(s) is done to unequivocally determine if there is a leak? Such a test will 'work' even if the leak is very small?

Okay here is the crux of the matter....how likely will the dealer 'help' in this repair given it is a repeat; given that this engine has a history of such a failure? But also given that I have taken the car elsewhere for basic maintenance (without documentation) since the expiration of the warranty.

[tortoise]

...how likely will the dealer 'help' in this repair given it is a repeat; given the expiration of the warranty.

Sadly, I'd expect to be on your own for this one.

Though, with the bad press that's been going around, you never know.

[barrie1]

Do you do a lot of short trips around town as that can also lead to this condition happening. If the engine is driven a lot without ever getting up to full operating temperatures then the same effect will happen on a much smaller scale. I would think if they have changed the gaskets once already they would have used the much superior ones to replace the bad ones with in the fix the 1st time. Wipe out the inner cap and give it a good long highway drive and then check again. It might just clear up. 

[21Rouge]

Do you do a lot of short trips around town as that can also lead to this condition happening. If the engine is driven a lot without ever getting up to full operating temperatures then the same effect will happen on a much smaller scale. I would think if they have changed the gaskets once already they would have used the much superior ones to replace the bad ones with in the fix the 1st time. Wipe out the inner cap and give it a good long highway drive and then check again. It might just clear up. 

The IM repair (gasket failure at rear) was done in March 2003. Did GM have the proper gasket by then? To be sure that it hasnt happened again what test(s) would you suggest to unequivocally confirm or deny? 

[articsteve]

The IM repair (gasket failure at rear) was done in March 2003. Did GM have the proper gasket by then? To be sure that it hasnt happened again what test(s) would you suggest to unequivocally confirm or deny? 

To be sure that it hasnt happened again what test(s) would you suggest

There is only one definitive test; TNT.  If the vehicle is still roadworthy after that then by all meanings proceed to step 2; sell it. 

[21Rouge]

To be sure that it hasnt happened again what test(s) would you suggest

There is only one definitive test; TNT.  If the vehicle is still roadworthy after that then by all meanings proceed to step 2; sell it. 

It is a viscious cycle. Cant afford a new van but repairs to the 'lemon' eat away at savings to buy a new vehicle.

[articsteve]

It is a viscious cycle. Cant afford a new van but repairs to the 'lemon' eat away at savings to buy a new vehicle.

It is a viscious cycle. Cant afford a new van but repairs to the 'lemon' eat away at savings to buy a new vehicle.

Most of us have been there, done that.

One of life's many ironies; death by a thousand cuts. 

[mdxtasy]

A true test of how old you really are:

Read the title of this thread, if you thought IM meant:

1) Intake Manifold....you're not a gen Y'er.
2) Instant Messaging.....you're brought up in the techno age. 

[ovr50]

How old am I if I thought it meant "I'm the problem again"?

Pretty old, I guess. 

[exserviceguy]

Hi Box,
To verify that your 2003 repair was up to the latest issue from GM, compare the part number of the IMG listed on your copy of the warranty invoice against the current stock in the dealer parts dept.  This would tell you if the latest version of the gasket is currently in your van.  It looks like the class action law suit started in Toronto is the only way to go at the moment, GM has not announced any recall or extension of their warranty.  I am in the process of finishing off a major story on this for the Ottawa Citizen, check out their Driving Section next Friday, (May 12) Hope this isn't shameless promotion of the newspaper.

[21Rouge]

Hi Box,
To verify that your 2003 repair was up to the latest issue from GM, compare the part number of the IMG listed on your copy of the warranty invoice against the current stock in the dealer parts dept.  This would tell you if the latest version of the gasket is currently in your van.  It looks like the class action law suit started in Toronto is the only way to go at the moment, GM has not announced any recall or extension of their warranty. 

I will have to check the invoice at home. I bet the part no. isnt even listed .

But if it isnt the latest part than having the IMG fail for the second time is because the replacement part wasnt up to specs. Shouldnt that sway the dealership? 

Btw, any idea what is the current part no for this gasket?

[21Rouge]

It is a viscious cycle. Cant afford a new van but repairs to the 'lemon' eat away at savings to buy a new vehicle.

Most of us have been there, done that.

Our only option is to fix the problem. Of course I want it done right and at a reasonable price. The first step is to properly diagnose it. If there is a leak very small it can still be confirmed that the gasket is leaking? What test(s) would be done?

[articsteve]

I'd pour a bottle of IRONTITE in that junker first.  Then flush the DEXCOOL out of it.  For $30 you just might solve your problem until something else kills it or it kills you first. 

[ToeBanjo]

I fear the same is occurring with my '99 TransSport...gasket replaced in Nov2001 @ 49600km, now at 104000km it is exhibiting signs of internal leaking.  A bit of sludge on the inside of the oil filler cap, and a brown chocolate kind of colour to the oil when I drained it two weeks ago.  That plus the infamous piston slap, bubbling/peeling paint on the hood and rust on the rocker panels makes me with I hadn't been so cheap and had bought the Sienna instead.  Even if it was $15k more. 

[safristi]

  INT MAN !!??..................didn't snowballs get a ticket there once.................

[barrie1]

Boxgrover I would continue to watch the oil cap for more signs of this problem. This moisture condition can happen in any make of engine and has many times in the past with engines that have not been warmed up enough. I have seen it on many makes and models and for the same reason on most of them. It always seems the folks who have the most and worst to say about the GM products have the smallest amount of knowledge on them. Toebanjo as your vehicle is 7 years of age you have to realize that the front of the hood on many vehicles take a beating from all the rock chips and salt. Most vehicles of that vintage have some of these small rust problems and not just this brand. Did you  have any undercoating applied to this vehicle every year since new or even keep it completly clean on a reg basis. How many times have you waxed this vehicle since new as well? 

[21Rouge]

Boxgrover I would continue to watch the oil cap for more signs of this problem.

I understand that for a IMGasket failure a pressure test is relatively inexpensive...say $50. For peace of mind, or at least complete disclosure, it seems the way to go.

It always seems the folks who have the most and worst to say about the GM products have the smallest amount of knowledge on them.

barrie, you have misunderstood my post. I was just looking for some advice not denigrating GM.

[barrie1]

Boxgrover my statements was not directed at you at all. Sorry if it came across that way as it wasen't intended for you at all. You also have to remember over the years some amount of sludge and oil waste does build up in every engine. It usually gathers around the cap area and the oil spout. Being the axcess holes they are they also collect a wee bit of moisture on them. Only you know the life History of the oil changes in this vehicle and how well it has been serviced. If the rad is not going down and the oil is OK for colour keep driving it as its probably OK. We have just come from a winter driving temperature range as well so that will make a small difference on things like this. The cold air and moisture create these conditions in all engines. Does your vehicle sit out at night or in a heated Garage?

[roadrunner]

I will have to check the invoice at home. I bet the part no. isnt even listed .

But if it isnt the latest part than having the IMG fail for the second time is because the replacement part wasnt up to specs. Shouldnt that sway the dealership? 

Btw, any idea what is the current part no for this gasket?

Boxgrover,

I just checked the invoice for my gasket change and it's part # is not listed. I tried a search here but It only went back to Jan.'05.

I know someone posted the new gasket part (it's a kit) number before but I can't find it now.

The info I had was GM released a new 'revised' gasket kit in Feb.'03. I've never heard any thing different.

I was standing by my tech when he pulled out the new gaskets for my 2000 Silhouette 3.4L and he told me as well as showed me they were the new ones.

The gaskets were changed Sept.14/'04 and I've had no leaks/problems with them since. Hope to hell I never do!

If your tech DID install the new gasket kit (which was released one month before your repair) it's possible it didn't seat properly and perhaps this gasket has been VERY slowly leaking into the oil ever since. I sisncerely hope that is NOT the case but it COULD happen.

 GM facked up BIG TIME and THEY know it, and Barrie knows it too.

That said, you MAY have a coolant in a different place. Head gasket perhaps?

Get hold of the GM Class Action Suit link and fill out the questionnaire and send it in. I've already sent mine in.

Be prepared to send copies of all invoices and correspondence with the questionnaire.

Your discovery of light brown oil on the bottom of the oil filler cap COULD be from another leaking gasket, BUT, what Barrie said about real cold mornings and engine condensation is also true.

This happened to me one morning before the gasket started leaking and after a call to my tech, I relaxed knowing very cold nights/mornings can cause a light brown sluge in the engine. The saving factor here is the heat of the engine burns off the moisture.

Also check the rad coolant when first starting the engine in the am. With the reservoir coolant return hose to the rad clamped off, remove the rad cap (You'll lose a little coolant here IF the rad is right full)

Check the coolant for an oily film on top. You can also see oil deposits in the coolant reservoir if the gasket has started leaking again.

[barrie1]

Yes you are correct Roadr in that I know about the gasket problem on these vehicles but as his rad has not gone down any at all he stated thats why the morning moisture may be present under the cap. I hope there is nothing wrong with this engine as well as its should have been fixed the 1st time under warranty. If this problem clears up then he will know the answer but if it dosen't he will also know the answer. As so far its only been under the cap for this residue then I suspect its the overnight type of problem you are aware of yourself.