Topic: New or rebuilt engines - is it normal to burn oil for a while??

[curls]

Hey everyone.

I bought a used 2004 Acura TSX w/ 72,000km's, from an Acura dealer.  Long story short, the car was burning 1 litre of oil every 1000 km's, no matter what the driving style, terrain, or oil used.

Acura warrantied the engine, providing a REBUILD:  Piston rings, valve seals, all gaskets, head bolts, honed cylinder walls.  The ultimate cause of the original oil burning was improper break-in (highway) leading to carbonization of the oil control rings (each one was carbon'd and wouldn't rotate at all.  Each piston was washed.  All were cleaned up and new rings put in as I mentioned above).

My question is this:  After 1,000km on the rebuild, I was down 1 litre of oil, AGAIN.  After the first 500 km it was still honey colored and only down a slight bit.  But at 1,000 km it was dark brown and down 1 litre.  I broke it in using a moderate version of the mototuneusa method (driving it fairly aggressively but no constant redline).  IS IT NORMAL TO USE 1 L OF OIL IN 1000 KM ON A FRESH REBUILD??  WILL IT GET BETTER??

The above question can be answered as if the engine was NEW as well, because internally, they basically are.

So, anyone here know or have experience with brand new or rebuilt engines burning oil initially??

Thanks everyone,
Eric

[initial_D]

Poor you. 

IS IT NORMAL TO USE 1 L OF OIL IN 1000 KM ON A FRESH REBUILD??  WILL IT GET BETTER??

No.  and no, it won't get any better.

So, anyone here know or have experience with brand new or rebuilt engines burning oil initially??

No. But I am suspecting there is something else wrong. Maybe even a tiny leak somewhere? 

[curls]

Poor you. 

IS IT NORMAL TO USE 1 L OF OIL IN 1000 KM ON A FRESH REBUILD??  WILL IT GET BETTER??

No.  and no, it won't get any better.

So, anyone here know or have experience with brand new or rebuilt engines burning oil initially??

No. But I am suspecting there is something else wrong. Maybe even a tiny leak somewhere? 

Since all the gaskets were replaced, all seals replaced, I'd highly doubt a leak would be present.  Also, I don't smell burnt oil, so there isn't likely a leak that is depositing oil onto the exhaust manifold where it's being burned.  I'd smell that for sure.

[initial_D]

It is a bit uncommon for Honda engine to burn excessive oil like that. Other new rebuilds maybe.

Well, guess you will have to wait til the first oil change at 5000 km to see how it goes. What is the warranty on  it? 

[curls]

It is a bit uncommon for Honda engine to burn excessive oil like that. Other new rebuilds maybe.

Well, guess you will have to wait til the first oil change at 5000 km to see how it goes. What is the warranty on  it? 

I might get a change earlier, in case there are metal particles in there from the new rings wearing in (as they should).

Warranty: Still have 9,000 km on it.  Although since its a well documented problem w/ my car and I have a decent relationship with my operations manager at the dealer, I'm not worried TOO much.

I just can't explain WHERE the oil is going.  Rings: new.  Valve seals: new.  No leaks, no smell.  Is it my driving style that is leading to this?  Doubtful - I've driven manual tranny's for years with no problems like this.

[initial_D]

Stick shifting won't burn oil.  Just increase the pleasure.

I would take a sample of the oil and send it to a lab for an analysis. There are ppl  here on this forum had done it.

What type of oil do you have in there currently?

[curls]

Stick shifting won't burn oil.  Just increase the pleasure.

I would take a sample of the oil and send it to a lab for an analysis. There are ppl  here on this forum had done it.

What type of oil do you have in there currently?

Previous to the rebuild, I always went to the dealer for service, so it was OEM Honda 5w30.

Haven't needed to change the oil since the rebuild (only 1000 km +/-), so what's in there now is most likely Honda 5w30 as well. 

What do you recommend?

[initial_D]

No expert on motor oil, they will come along shortly with answers. 

[yugrus]

I bet they use bulk 5w20 at the dealerships because that's what Honda specifies for its new(er) engines. Although it very well might be 5w30 if the dealer can get it cheap(er).
There should have been the difference in oil consumption before and after the re-build... Have you actually seen the engine torn down?
I'd let the dealer know what's going on right away. It is better to have some paper trail in your case.

[curls]

Have you actually seen the engine torn down?

No but I saw the valve cover gasket was new and the hondabond around the head gasket area was new as well.  I also talked with the head tech, who did my rebuild, and he was very honest and straight-forward with me.  Didn't seem like there was anything to hide at all.

I will bring it up next week w/ the dealer.

I will also be monitoring the oil very closely.  Any change in level from here on out would indicate to me that either the rebuild was botched, or, the cylinders are out of round (a distant possibility as my car was the 32nd one off of the assembly line -- VIN xxxx000032 ).  I know another guy with the same model car, VIN 000031, and is having oil consumption problems as well.  Maybe there's an early-production-run problem with the blocks?  He hasn't had a rebuild yet, however.

[articsteve]

Hey everyone.

I bought a used 2004 Acura TSX w/ 72,000km's, from an Acura dealer.  Long story short, the car was burning 1 litre of oil every 1000 km's, no matter what the driving style, terrain, or oil used.

Acura warrantied the engine, providing a REBUILD:  Piston rings, valve seals, all gaskets, head bolts, honed cylinder walls.  The ultimate cause of the original oil burning was improper break-in (highway) leading to carbonization of the oil control rings (each one was carbon'd and wouldn't rotate at all.  Each piston was washed.  All were cleaned up and new rings put in as I mentioned above).

My question is this:  After 1,000km on the rebuild, I was down 1 litre of oil, AGAIN.  After the first 500 km it was still honey colored and only down a slight bit.  But at 1,000 km it was dark brown and down 1 litre.  I broke it in using a moderate version of the mototuneusa method (driving it fairly aggressively but no constant redline).  IS IT NORMAL TO USE 1 L OF OIL IN 1000 KM ON A FRESH REBUILD??  WILL IT GET BETTER??

The above question can be answered as if the engine was NEW as well, because internally, they basically are.

So, anyone here know or have experience with brand new or rebuilt engines burning oil initially??

Thanks everyone,
Eric

Acura warrantied the engine, providing a REBUILD:  Piston rings, valve seals, all gaskets, head bolts, honed cylinder walls.

Just to be clear you did not get a "REBUILD"  Piston rings and a honing are just that.  I do that on my 2 strokes as a matter of maintenance.

I suspect that something was wrong with the motor right from the beginning and it wasn't a bad break in.  Very convenient to blame the operator.

For a proper rebuild Acura needed to re-sleeve the cylinders or order a new block.  Those liners are centrifugally cast iron cylinder liners and are very specific.  Honing will do nothing if there is a fundamental flaw in one or more liners.

Was there a complete leak down test done after the ring job and do you have the before and after results?

This motor also has a real complex valve system so that might be out of phase as well.   But going on the information that the rings were toast, if that was correct, then I'd say the only way to get this motor back to square one is either resleve or get a new block.  Either way that kind of a job is 100 times more involved that installing new rings. One thing for sure is your cats will be very dirty.

[curls]

Hey everyone.

I bought a used 2004 Acura TSX w/ 72,000km's, from an Acura dealer.  Long story short, the car was burning 1 litre of oil every 1000 km's, no matter what the driving style, terrain, or oil used.

Acura warrantied the engine, providing a REBUILD:  Piston rings, valve seals, all gaskets, head bolts, honed cylinder walls.  The ultimate cause of the original oil burning was improper break-in (highway) leading to carbonization of the oil control rings (each one was carbon'd and wouldn't rotate at all.  Each piston was washed.  All were cleaned up and new rings put in as I mentioned above).

My question is this:  After 1,000km on the rebuild, I was down 1 litre of oil, AGAIN.  After the first 500 km it was still honey colored and only down a slight bit.  But at 1,000 km it was dark brown and down 1 litre.  I broke it in using a moderate version of the mototuneusa method (driving it fairly aggressively but no constant redline).  IS IT NORMAL TO USE 1 L OF OIL IN 1000 KM ON A FRESH REBUILD??  WILL IT GET BETTER??

The above question can be answered as if the engine was NEW as well, because internally, they basically are.

So, anyone here know or have experience with brand new or rebuilt engines burning oil initially??

Thanks everyone,
Eric

Acura warrantied the engine, providing a REBUILD:  Piston rings, valve seals, all gaskets, head bolts, honed cylinder walls.

Just to be clear you did not get a "REBUILD"  Piston rings and a honing are just that.  I do that on my 2 strokes as a matter of maintenance.

I suspect that something was wrong with the motor right from the beginning and it wasn't a bad break in.  Very convenient to blame the operator.

For a proper rebuild Acura needed to re-sleeve the cylinders or order a new block.  Those liners are centrifugally cast iron cylinder liners and are very specific.  Honing will do nothing if there is a fundamental flaw in one or more liners.

Was there a complete leak down test done after the ring job and do you have the before and after results?

This motor also has a real complex valve system so that might be out of phase as well.   But going on the information that the rings were toast, if that was correct, then I'd say the only way to get this motor back to square one is either resleve or get a new block.  Either way that kind of a job is 100 times more involved that installing new rings. One thing for sure is your cats will be very dirty.

I hear what you're saying, and that is what I was fearing.  A very early production block just might be a prime candidate for this kind of problem. 

As for leakdown testing, I did one prior to the rebuild.  None since.

Prior to rebuild:  Compression: 210-210-215-215 psi.
Leakdown: Between 6% and 8% in all cylinders.  No real indication where it was leaking, though, as it was minimal at best.

My compression was always good, and the real problem as identified by the mechanic was that the oil control rings were full of carbon and couldn't move freely.  Is this a feasible result of a possible out-of-round cylinder?  Interestingly enough, he said ALL 4 cylinders had the same amount of piston dome wash and carbon in the oil control ring.

[Benhaze]

Something is not right here. Burning 1L of oil/1000 Km would plug up the converters, dirty the O2 sensors and would have turned the check engine light on by now. Just to give you a reference point, Honda typically recommends long oil change intervals and you would ran dry well before it is time to change the oil.

I think Arctic Steve recommendations are good. I also noticed from your original postings the pistons were not replaced. Could be a concern with the oil rings not seating properly?

How are the exhaust fumes? Are they blue? You'd certainly expect so if you burn that much oil. Valve seat problem would likely cause smoke on cold starts.

[articsteve]

Something is not right here. Burning 1L of oil/1000 Km would plug up the converters, dirty the O2 sensors and would have turned the check engine light on by now. Just to give you a reference point, Honda typically recommends long oil change intervals and you would ran dry well before it is time to change the oil.

I think Arctic Steve recommendations are good. I also noticed from your original postings the pistons were not replaced. Could be a concern with the oil rings not seating properly?

How are the exhaust fumes? Are they blue? You'd certainly expect so if you burn that much oil. Valve seat problem would likely cause smoke on cold starts.

Burning 1L of oil/1000 Km would plug up the converters, dirty the O2 sensors and would have turned the check engine light on by now.

I wouldn't rely on the 02 sensors triggering a check engine lite because of oil burning.  I just think the screens in the cat would be kind of "thick".  I think that excess fuel would be worse.

As for this TSX and Acura I think because this car was bought from an Acura dealer Acura Canada has an obligation to spend some money and replace the motor or do a proper re-sleeve which I doubt the dealer can do on site so essentially you will get a replacement block which will probably be brand new.  Personally, I think you should get a complete block, crank, pistons, etc. minus the head.

This of course will take a lot of fortitude on your part.  But Acura thru their dealer sold you this car so they can come good.

Keep us posted.

[curls]

Something is not right here. Burning 1L of oil/1000 Km would plug up the converters, dirty the O2 sensors and would have turned the check engine light on by now. Just to give you a reference point, Honda typically recommends long oil change intervals and you would ran dry well before it is time to change the oil.

I top it up (often).  It rarely ever gets below the lower hole in the dipstick.

How are the exhaust fumes? Are they blue? You'd certainly expect so if you burn that much oil. Valve seat problem would likely cause smoke on cold starts.

None to be seen.  I've had people follow me to see if there was anything visible, and there never once was.  Nothing on startup, either, aside from a normal amount of condensation (water vapour).

[curls]

Something is not right here. Burning 1L of oil/1000 Km would plug up the converters, dirty the O2 sensors and would have turned the check engine light on by now. Just to give you a reference point, Honda typically recommends long oil change intervals and you would ran dry well before it is time to change the oil.

I think Arctic Steve recommendations are good. I also noticed from your original postings the pistons were not replaced. Could be a concern with the oil rings not seating properly?

How are the exhaust fumes? Are they blue? You'd certainly expect so if you burn that much oil. Valve seat problem would likely cause smoke on cold starts.

Burning 1L of oil/1000 Km would plug up the converters, dirty the O2 sensors and would have turned the check engine light on by now.

I wouldn't rely on the 02 sensors triggering a check engine lite because of oil burning.  I just think the screens in the cat would be kind of "thick".  I think that excess fuel would be worse.

As for this TSX and Acura I think because this car was bought from an Acura dealer Acura Canada has an obligation to spend some money and replace the motor or do a proper re-sleeve which I doubt the dealer can do on site so essentially you will get a replacement block which will probably be brand new.  Personally, I think you should get a complete block, crank, pistons, etc. minus the head.

This of course will take a lot of fortitude on your part.  But Acura thru their dealer sold you this car so they can come good.

Keep us posted.

I plan to make use of the 130,000 km warranty on the cat if needed.

I'm still under warranty regardless of where I bought the car, and with a history on paper, and a rebuild under my belt, if the oil consumption still is a problem in a few thousand km's, then I will surely be fighting hard to get a new block, or maybe even a new complete engine.

I will definately keep you guys posted.

[barrie1]

Yes it will burn oil until the rings seat -in to the cylinder walls. All new engines will burn some oil and a qt is not all that far off with this design on occasion. It depends on how well the rings seat in to stop this happening and how fast as well. The change of colour would be normal dirt and the new debris coming off the cylinder walls and the rings. Personally I would add a botle of EOS and see how it goes. It should improve after the next oil change with that in it.     

[curls]

Yes it will burn oil until the rings seat -in to the cylinder walls. All new engines will burn some oil and a qt is not all that far off with this design on occasion. It depends on how well the rings seat in to stop this happening and how fast as well. The change of colour would be normal dirt and the new debris coming off the cylinder walls and the rings. Personally I would add a botle of EOS and see how it goes. It should improve after the next oil change with that in it.     

How long does it take for this to clear up on "the average engine" ??

[Benhaze]

Sorry Barrie but IMO, 1 qt per 1000 Km is not acceptable, either new, used or rebuilt.

[barrie1]

It depends on the design of the engine as to the length of the rings to seat in. The original 360 Ford truck engines had a serious problem with this for years and some were torn down and re-ringed many times but wouldn't seat at all. The 1st 1000 miles or so are the hardest and if they haven't seated in yet then Honda should replace the block possibly or pistons next. Every design is different and to use some oil in the beginning is normal but this is a little high on this engine. I would keep driving it to see what happens as there is still hope they will seat-in and stop the oil consumption. There used to be a saying that many of the mechanics used which was "they knew an engine was getting good lubrication if it used a little oil in between changes". Make sure the pcv is not plugged on this vehicle as well as that will also not help this matter out either. If the rings are seized again then I would definitely use a small can of EOS as a additive to help free them up.