CD Article: 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid and 2006 Toyota Prius

[Jameel]

Seems like pretty poor gas mileage on the civic, "381.6 kilometres per tank".  That's not good at all.  If I drive very, conservative I can get 487 km per tank on my 2003 Civic (non hybrid), in summer.

When Hybrids first came out I thought they were a great idea, but when you factor their cost to the fuel savings it doesn't seem worth it at all.  You might as well get a diesel golf or jetta.  You can get from 700 to 900 km on a tank.

[haris]

What's up with Civic's mileage? Less than 400km on a tank? 8.7 l/100km?
I really hope something's wrong with the car you guys got for testing.
Honda should have turned Euro hatchback Civic into a hybrid, then they'd have something that can compete with Prius. As it stands now, seems like Prius is way, way better choice of the two.

[AVToller]

"Kilometres per tank" is a meaningless figure unless the tank has been driven from full to empty! As mentioned in the article, the "near empty" indication resulted in adding only about 33 litres to a 45 litre tank!!   

[Craig]

Still, 8.7L/100km was expressed as the fuel economy (or lack thereof) of the Civic Hybrid, which, even in winter city driving, is WAY higher than I expected.  If fuel economy is the purpose of hybrid systems, there is something wrong here.

My 1.6EL gets under 8L/100km in the winter, and better than 7.0 in the summer, unless I accelerate like mad.

It sounds like the 2006 Civic Hybrid has worse fuel economy than the regular Civic.  If so, what the hell is the point?

[Howswedeitis]

Let's be realistic hybrid technology isn't all it is "hyped up" to be.
There are two factors rarely looked at. One being long term
reliability as well as the cost of maintenace. And secondly the
cost of battery replacement (said to have a life of no more than
5-6 years) which runs from what I hear anywhere
from 5000 to 7000 dollars. To be sure, once these items are
factored in hybrid cars don't look quite as economical as advertised.
If one adds the fact that the battery pack must have disposed of
these cars quickly lose their evironmental cache.

[CanadaPrius2001]

Yep..  That's a Honda thing..  My 2001 Prius, which is a sedan that looks a lot like the current Civic hybrid (hmmm..) has a flock-covered cellular plastic liner on the inner trunk lid..    Extra $1.00 or so in parts cost, but it's a nice touch that makes the car feel much more "finished"..

On the topic of dashboards, I liked the 2001-2003 Prius dashboard the best- very "open" with lots of room..  After driving the Prius, most other cars make me feel claustrophobic..   The 2004-present models preserve the clean dash, but I violently dislike the cheap-feeling painted finish vs. the nice grained plastics used in the 2001..

Beautiful colour, beautiful interior - blue on beige and black. Too bad about the childlike, star trek dashboard with those gimmicks and the somewhat ugly nose. Otherwise it would be wonderful.

I also noticed that the trunk lid is not covered. Typicall Japanese cost-cutting...

Typical Honda. Even the Accord doesn't have a cover. (Although I think that was amended in 2005?). While all companies try to cut costs, I think some do it better than others. Some know how to cut costs in areas that will never be seen or felt by the consumer while others seem to do it right in the consumer's face.

[davidm]

Let's face it hybrid technology is a 'stop gap' solution until fuel cell technology comes on stream.
The truth is that hybrid cars only get marginally better fuel mileage (in real
world driving conditions) compared to their conventional counterparts. Add to this their
higher cost and untested long term reliability, one really has to wonder what advantage
they bring to the consumer aside from what I guess you'd call the "feel good" factor in
light of their "GREEN" image. The fact that the replacement battery pack runs as high as
seven thousand dollars and it's estimated that they last no more than 5 or 6 years has
got to factor in here somewhere. To which those actually thinking of buying one of
these vehicles should ask themselves what is the true cost of these vehicles and
yeah what to do with the dead battery pack once that has reached the end
of it's short life cycle...

Hybrid certainly have their issues, but as someone with a lot of experience in the fuel cell world (investing and commercializing), these ain't exactly cheap. Then we can start on the whole fuel distribution issue ...

Don't get me wrong, I love fuel cells, but cars are the last place they're going to show up commercially.  Look for laptops and cellphones first.  If anyone wants a fuel cell powered flashlight, I can get you one, but it won't be cheap.

[Rupert]

From what I gather the energy in the battery of a hybrid is acquired from the act of braking.So that if most of your driving comprises of highway travel with little braking and a short trip to the on and off ramps then surely these vahicles would be less conservative than regular vehicles under these circumstances. Given that the weight is probably higher and a smaller engine this does not help either. Power consumption is a function of weight, wind resisstance and friction. Stop go traffic around town is another matter. Perhaps I am missing something here. Do you charge the battery from an outlet over night? Even then the power has to be produced somewhere and this would be even worse from the point of view of efficiency and global warming and pollution. I suppose that it depends on the circumstances under which these vehicles are used. It's a point to consider when buying.

[CanadaPrius2001]

All these negative attitudes towards hybrids really amuse me..   I routinely get 46 USMPG out of a 1st generation hybrid, which to me, really _does_ live up to the hype..   I don't even drive much differently (ie, I absolutely do **NOT** "pulse and glide"), it's just that the live mileage display gives me one additional input that I didin't have in other cars and allows me to optimize my driving for the car..   I think it's really a matter of controlling your expectations- the car is *NOT* a 200+ HP V6-powered gas guzzler, so don't expect to be able to drive it that way..

My 2001 Prius has been the most reliable car I've ever owned..   I've had to put less into the car in terms of maintenance than any of my previous cars..   Basically, oil changes, air filters and wiper fluid are the only real maintenance that I've needed..  I'm still on the original brake components (85% remaining on the pads after 5 years).  There's no clutch to wear out or torque converter to fail, no starter motor to burn out, no alternator..  People keep spreading doom and gloom stories about the batteries, but I've run almost 200,000km on my battery and it shows no signs of getting weak, all the cells are still well balanced and I expect many more years of service out of it..

As for battery disposal- the NiMH technology is a lot cleaner and safer than the 12V lead-acid batteries which have lead and sulfuric acid in them..  NiMH batteries by comparison have a simple metallic nickel electrode, and water/potassium hydroxide electrolyte.  The electrolyte can either be recycled or easily neutralized into a harmless substance, and the nickel is completely safe and recyclable..  Toyota has already established several plants worldwide to recycle these batteries..

As for how the battery is charged, yes, it does derive a significant portion from regenerative braking, but the majority of it is recovered from excess engine power..   Think about it, the main reason for big massive, high horsepower engines in passenger cars is for acceleration.   Once a car is going, it doesn't take much power from the engine to keep it going, let's say about 30-40 HP, so with the Prius' 76 HP engine,  there's an extra 30 HP available to generate electricity..   This is the main source of the battery charging in the Prius, so it never needs to be plugged in.  Because the Prius has two electric motors, the electricity from one motor can be fed into the other, and additional power can also be drawn from the battery to provide extra boost when needed, thus the 110 peak HP available when you need to accelerate.  This is obviously a much simplified explanation, but it illustrates how hybrids achieve most of their efficiency..   The rest of the efficiency gains are from the use of things like the Atkinson-cycle in the gas engine, low rolling resistance tires, eliminating hydraulic power steering and belt-driven air conditioning for electrically powered versions, etc..   For those with "plug-in hybrid" retrofits, what they do is add additional battery capacity to their vehicles (at a cost of $10k-$20k over the original cost of the vehicle).  The hybrid electic motors are able to use the extra power from the additional batteries, but house current (this is where the plug-in comes from) is used to charge up the additional battery instead of the gas engine in the vehicle, and so it gives the illusion of even higher gas mileage than normal..

[ghost]

Yup great on mileage and at our local Autox, a guy races his Honda Insight with R compounds. Pretty quick actually. But not sure how's that gonna affect the mileage with such exuberant use of the happy pedal.

[wing]

Ghost, does that insight guy get his best run at the first run?  After that he has less power

[Prius]

Ditto. My first summer's best on my 05 Prius is 4.4L/100km. Worst was last winter when the car was new and I was learning how to drive it at 5.8L/100km. Right now, I'm at 4.8L/100km. Granted, where I live, it's not as cold as Ottawa is right now.

Hmm, under 8L/100km in an EL in the winter eh? What about automatic ELs? They'll get worse mileage than your manual.

CanadaPrius2001, don't be so harsh  . 5.2L/100km as their best is pretty darn good for a winter mileage for someone who drives the Prius like they would any other car. Driving Television did a Hybrid Commuter Challenge (with a Jetta TDI thrown in for good measure). Their average was pretty darn good.

As for Jettas getting 900km/tank. Sure, but what size is your tank? And I don't know where you live, but where I live, diesel is more expensive than regular. A non-NA spec Prius (i.e. without a bladder) can get upwards of 1000-1200km consistently on a 45 litre tank (Yup, as in refuel 44-45 litres at the pump).

[Prius]

Welcome to the Forum Prius, I'll  find out for you how many km on that Prius

Thanks!

[Soleil24]

I'm sorry for any mistake in that reply, english is not my first language.

I just don't understand how they can have that 8.7L/100km with a Civic Hybrid.

I got mine since february 3, 2006.  I just love the car and I'm sill adjusting to it.  I think Hybrid driver need to adjust their way of driving in order to get most of it.  It does not mean been in the way of other going too slow but adjusting the way you start, get to speed, crusing and stoping.  Instantenous consumption gage will help you to achive that.

I live in Laval Qc and basicly use my hybrid to go to work in Montreal Downtown in traffic condition.  First tank, I average 5,9L/100 km and now on the second thank I average 5,7L/100km.  Considering that my car is still in break-in, it's winter and I'm still getting use to drive it efficiently.  I find it very good.  I'm pretty sure I will improve.  I haven't done any highway ride so far.

About the auto stop feature, the motor restart as soon you release the brake so when your foot reach the gas pedal, you are always ready to go, no delay at all.

About running on electricity only.  I did it at different speed 30km/h, 50km/h, even 95km/h.  Depending on the road condition.  You cannot accelerate on assist only but you can maintain your speed.  Very usefull in slow traffic morning.  Battery recharging is very efficient.

About the battery, the guaranty is 8 year for the civic.  I don't think Honda will guaranty it that long if it was suppose to be change before that.  Like it was said in previous reply, this kind of battery can easily be recycle.

Thanks for reading me.

[wing]

Message from the Editor:

The Prius currently has about 5,600 km.

The Prius is doing much better than the Civic, but it has more highway miles on it.  That should be to the disadvantage of the Prius, but we're finding that city driving in the winter is a serious negative for fuel saving.  We're getting better mileage on the highway than in the city on the Prius, and it should be the opposite.  Prius city averages around 6.9 - 7.2.

[Shnak]

As for Jettas getting 900km/tank. Sure, but what size is your tank? And I don't know where you live, but where I live, diesel is more expensive than regular. A non-NA spec Prius (i.e. without a bladder) can get upwards of 1000-1200km consistently on a 45 litre tank (Yup, as in refuel 44-45 litres at the pump).

Jetta tank is 56L... and diesel is on average about 10¢ more than regular.

[Prius]

Wing:

Alright thanks.

Depends I suppose. My driving is all city. Over the summer, I did some highway driving down to the states and I averaged btwn 5.0 and 5.1 doing 70mph with 4 ppl and luggage on board so my highway driving is definitely worse than city. Also, depends whether you have the heater at MAX HEAT. The thing is, the engine warms itself fairly quickly but it'll continue to run at traffic lights if heat is required. I usually don't require much heat in the car since it doesn't get that cold around here so that might explain better mileage here compared to S. Ont.

Oh and using a pulse and glide technique (should work on the 06 HCH too), will help you get better mileage. I tend to use the glide part and not so much the pulse since pulsing will those behind you cause you keep changing speed. Gliding is when you have no arrows to and from the battery and your engine's off. This way, no fuel is used but neither is any battery power too so it's a free ride essentially. Pressing lightly on the accelerator will "engage" glide mode (equivalently, neutral does the same but in neutral, you obviously don't have control if you need to accelerate to avoid something).

Shnak,

Thanks. Well my record tank last summer was 836kms and I refuelled 37 litres (again, can't use the full 45 litres because of the bladder).

So if you're saying 900kms on a Jetta TDI. That's 70kms more on almost 20 litres more fuel that's 10¢ more expensive per litre so ~$2 for an extra 70kms.

[wing]

Prius, so it sounds like you really have to drive it like a hybrid and engage different setting to get the most out of it.  I belive the CanadianDriver crew is just driving it like a regular car with no attempt to "pulse" or "glide"

[Prius]

haha. Does it sound laboring?

Well, it's just for us nutters to eek out the best in hybrids that's all. It's not something that you have to keep in the back of your mind, it's just like.. say.. driving a manual and remembering to shift at certain points, after a while, it becomes second nature.

That's also the reason why I was impressed at their 5.2L/100km best tank. For people who drive it normally, that's darn good. Driving Television did a Hybrid Commuter Challenge in Vancouver, it covered a 200km route that covers suburban, highway and mountain roads (Cypress Mountain). The Prius averaged 5.2L/100km while the worst of the bunch was the Accord EX 4 cylinder at 12.0L/100km surprisingly... Escape Hybrid was 7.5L/100km, Jetta TDI netted 6.8L/100km.

Here's the link
http://www.drivingtelevision.com/segmentviewer.php?segment=2&episode=312&searchStatus=&keyword=&keywordcall=&segtitle=

Zack keeps mentioning that the Prius should get better mileage cause it has a small 1.5 litre engine etc etc. But as CanadianDriver showed, even the Civic with a smaller 1.3 litre engine performs worse under similar condition. What would be nice is if they switched cars and see if mileage changes.

[mar1990]

"both feature regenerative braking that captures heat energy, converts it into electricity"

Captures heat energy?    I guess the geek in me would like to know more about how this is accomplished. It must mean $pecial rotors and pads since that is where the heat is generated.  I would have figured that pressing the brake pedal would engage the motor to behave like a generator and thus slow the car down and recharge the batteries. Similar to engine braking except that being in generator mode provides resistance rather than compression).  This would also help explain another poster-owner's comment about lots of brake pad left.