Topic: Drive Clean And Other Emission Programs... Time To Go?

[Zoo]

I meant to post this earlier. We took our Civic in for its Drive Clean the other day. Passed with flying colours (as it should I keep our vehicles well maintained). The funny thing is that it had better results than two years ago! The idle test was a low score on its first test (possible due to a dirty air cleaner). The Civic had a major service in December with all filters changed, brake fluid changed etc. As a result it aced the test. My question is, if most people maintain their vehicles reasonably well, and with so many vehicles sold now exceeding LEW, ULEV etc then is this really doing much for the environment? If I am correct I think the Provinical Government gets $20-$25 of the testing fee. I can't see how the garage makes much, if any, margin off of the test once you factor time, wear and tear on the equipment etc.

  Should the program be scrapped all together, or should it modified to test vehicles 6 years and older then every two years? I'm all for doing my bit for the environment; but surely the coal fired powerplants and diesel spewing trucks and buses must be worse than most cars. Any thoughts on this?

[vtec_inside]

In Ontario they just did change it so that the first test is now at 5yrs, rather than 3.

The system is flawed though.

My '89 failed the test in Jan '04. I spent a little over $200 on it then just doing basic tune-up stuff, plugs, filters, and valve adjustment. The valve adjustment is about the only thing that it probably really benefited from. The end result of that was that the emissions got slightly worse, lol.. At that point they said that it would need a cat, well guess what, that would have put me over the repair limit so I didn't need to do it. Conditional pass and I was on my way

This time I was determined to have it pass. I spent about 3 weeks starting late November fiddling with the thing. I put a new cat on it and went for the test. Guess what, failed again, lower numbers but proportionately the same as it had been. Fortunately my dealer offered to run the car on the exhaust analyzer for nothing as I fixed/changed things. In retrospect that was about the least that they owed me based on what I discovered as I went about repairing it.

I wont bore with details, but my Accord is carbed yet features a feedback system composed of at the very least, an O2 sensor, a intake air temp sensor, and a coolant temp sensor. After replacing the O2, and eliminating the IAT as the problem I moved right along to the coolant temp sensor. At that point the emissions were greatly reduced but was still over on CO by a touch. Continuing my quest, guess what, the coolant temp sensor had become disconnected!!!.

Here are the before and after:


If I may say so, thats pretty freaking decent for a 17yr old CARBURETED car. Sorry for the rant, its just that I still feel incredibly good about the whole situation as I was able to fix it when the dealer had ultimately let me down. I was told that the O2 sensor couldn't be the problem even though replacing it resulted in a drop of 1% CO. Perhaps it was a side effect of the specifics of the car, but this is a Honda dealership, and I troubleshooted using the same factory manuals that they undoubtedly have access to... sigh....

Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that I could have just as easily replaced the cat, and a couple other things, not really corrected the problem and continued to drive again for another 2 yrs. Being a picky mofo, that was not an option for me, but I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't give a rats ass.

P.S. I also picked up 2L/100kms mileage since fixing it. That alone will offset the small amount of money and time I spent fixing it.

[tpl]

I would say keep the drive clean and combine it with a mandatory ANNUAL safety check.
So do the emissions test in conjunction with the brakes/tires/wipers/lights/etc.etc. and noise emissions
TEST ALL TRUCKS under  12,000 lbs empty weight...that is all the big pickups, SUVs and RVs
Fail any vehicles that do not meet the construction and use regulations.  So any jacked up pickups and ( a frequent offender) Jeeps with tires protruding beyond the fenders would be failed....might also get rid of some civics with fart can exhausts!

And extend it back to, say, 1975 the first year of unleaded gas and catalytic converters on a fair number of cars. Make it possible to avoid the emissions test by having the vehicle run on an Historic plate with low annual mileage.


I do agree about the usefulness of the emissions test on new vehicles.   I am not sure that my 2003 BMW can fail the test without having the CEL on and throwing a code.

[barrie1]

Fairs fair if you want evey full sized truck under 12,000lb to be tested on a reg basis then i want every imported car that comes into this Country tested and have tighter specs put on them. There has been too much faveratism shown already on the imported cars. They can sell their vehicles here at what ever price but they won't touch ours in their country. Sorry boot them out of here as what good for one should be good for both sides. But its not. 

[tpl]

Ok Barrie.  I was not suggesting that any road vehicle sold to consumers be exempt except for those on historic plates.  It might be that your race truck would have to be trailered to events like many other race vehicles...maybe your truck, being an efficient engine I am sure would pass the emissions tests.

My point is that there should be a yearly safety check.  If it is decided to keep the emission check then it should be combined into one single annual test. And I see no reasons why Big pickups ( F250/350, GM & DC equivalents as well as Toyota and Nissan) should be exempted from any of the rules...after all they are driven on the same roads as other vehicles

[Snowman]

Fairs fair if you want evey full sized truck under 12,000lb to be tested on a reg basis then i want every imported car that comes into this Country tested and have tighter specs put on them. There has been too much faveratism shown already on the imported cars. They can sell their vehicles here at what ever price but they won't touch ours in their country. Sorry boot them out of here as what good for one should be good for both sides. But its not. 

  What preferential treatment do the import cars have over domestic brands?

[safristi]

THEIR "NAME?".........

[articsteve]

My point is that there should be a yearly safety check. 

What a gouge fest/assault that would be for the consumer.  How much regulation does it take to sink an economy/ society?

[wing]

They do it in NS

[articsteve]

  It might be that your race truck would have to be trailered to events like many other race vehicles...maybe your truck, being an efficient engine I am sure would pass the emissions tests.

Question is what standard will be used to test Barrie's 1/2 ton motor?  What defines an "efficient" motor in a 30 year old pickup?

Well Barrie you could spend 40K on a new 3/4 ton and another 10K on a trailer and trailer your baby everywhere you go.

I feel for you Barrie, you got absolutely screwed by political pandering and the Greens.

[articsteve]

They do it in NS

Yes, and look at their economy.  Being subsidized forever.

[Zoo]

Fairs fair if you want evey full sized truck under 12,000lb to be tested on a reg basis then i want every imported car that comes into this Country tested and have tighter specs put on them. There has been too much faveratism shown already on the imported cars. They can sell their vehicles here at what ever price but they won't touch ours in their country. Sorry boot them out of here as what good for one should be good for both sides. But its not.

That would nail many GM products Barrie! The Aveo etc would qualify as an import in my books as they come from Korea. The Civic and Corolla are made right here in Ontario. If I buy a Fusion it is made in Mexico. What exactly is an "import" anyways in this globalized economy. As GM etc shuts down NA manufacturing capacity and Honda/Toyota increase capacity what is really a locally made product?

[tpl]

The UK,France, Germany and Japan at least have annual checks.

Artic YOU may keep your vehicles in safe and roadworthy condition but lots of people just dont bother or care.
many examples. the rolling crap that the good Sgt Wooley of the OPP finds on the 400 every summer.
A colleague of mine , a very smart guy, but not into cars, driving around on 8 year old tires  "They still have some tread"
I have seen the same car 5 days running on the DVP at 100km/h using the temp spare ( a sunfire, not an car with a weird tire size)
The number of cars with a headlight or taillight out in RIDE season.
Slammed civics where the tires would touch the body over a bump
Damn jeeps with the tires exposed past the bodywork sparying water everywhere.

I saw a car today in the rain with one wiper blade missing, and the arm scraping the screen.


I expect that Barries truck would probably pass an emissions test set up for its engine configuration and I'd bet a lot that everything is safely and properly screwed together

[wing]

tpl, that's so true, can you believe my g/f's Dad a mechanic no less up until he sold the car last year was driving his '92 sentra on the ORIGINAL tires.  ORIGINAL!  12 years!  They still had tread though!

[articsteve]

I expect that Barries truck would probably pass an emissions test set up for its engine configuration and I'd bet a lot that everything is safely and properly screwed together

Testing Barrie's show pickup truck for emissions is big government doing what is does best .. 

I may have this wrong but I believe that Barrie has a different motor in his truck from what was original.  Under the rules that may cause him huge problems as it may not be allowed.

[articsteve]

The UK,France, Germany and Japan at least have annual checks.

Artic YOU may keep your vehicles in safe and roadworthy condition but lots of people just dont bother or care.

UK, France, Germany and Japan are ecosocialist societies in comparison to Owen Sound I can tell ya! 

It isn't a perfect world.  Lets take one step at a time.  The amount of impaired driving in the hinterland is still a happening thing because the chances of getting caught are zip.  If huge amounts of money are going to be blown lets give it to the Police (instead of garages) so they can ride the roads up here and battle back the drunks.  Around Owen Sound OPP patrols stop between 2 and 5 a.m.  Even if they are called out on a call the area is huge and back roads are everywhere.

In normal hours the OPP only have 2 cars available for a huge area (the Blue Mountain ski area (west Collingwood) to 10 miles from Owen Sound and from Georgian Bay to the Beaver Valley)

2 Patrol Cars with one officer each car and some women officers alone. 

I am sick of Government being in my FACE over the small stuff when the big stuff goes unabaited.

So I guess you get my feelings on annual safety checks.      

[tpl]

So why is the Owen Sound area so full of drunks?  I go up that way sometimes ( to Chatsworth and I dont see the whole population careening all over the road... I DID see an OPP office holding up about 50 cars by driving at 79 km/h on a perfectly straight road (highway 10 ) in clear daylight conditions.

And yes, I accept your opinion on annual checks, we can agree to disagree on that one.

[articsteve]

So why is the Owen Sound area so full of drunks?  I go up that way sometimes ( to Chatsworth and I dont see the whole population careening all over the road...

Alcohol consumption is very prevalent in the north (not that Owen Sound is Wawa) but the Bruce Peninsula (Owen Sound located at the base) with the many Reservations and what not have a culture of alcohol.  Essentially in Owen Sound you will not get police service unless a dire emergency between the hours of 10 pm and 3 am on Friday and Saturday nights due to the bar fights.  No public transportation.  People spread out over considerable distances in small towns.  Young people driving all over the place on back roads at highway speeds causes lots of single car crashes and many deaths.  Per capita, loss of life from MVA are so much higher than in cities.

One thing city people don't get is that up in the hinterland at night people are pretty well on their own.  OPP just there to pick up the pieces and hand out moving radar violations during the day.

[Snowman]

One thing city people don't get is that up in the hinterland at night people are pretty well on their own.  OPP just there to pick up the pieces and hand out moving radar violations during the day.

Yep, welcome to life in Northern Canada. Now you know why we want to keep our guns……and kick the krap out of sex offenders so the can’t walk again.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

NB has annual safety checks too. No emissions testing though. I believe PEI does safety inspections as well.
Anyone else? Or are safe vehicles just a Maritime obsession?