Topic: What would you choose?

[mdxtasy]

There ya go Trainman....you get an A+ in stats.

[inco]

Now that we are into the third year of our second Forester I guess one can conclude we like them. The first was a 99 'S' and now we have an Xs with the huge sunroof and monchromatic paint scheme.

No problems have surfaced with this model at all. Very reliably boring - just what we wanted.

[Snowman]

  Please stae facts:
X-trail Cargo Capacity with the rear seats up is 827L
Forester Cargo Capacity with the rear seats up is 906L

[Shnak]

I suspect the Forester cargo is more in height than the X-Trail is... But yeah, I didn't think the Forester was too too bad for cargo space. And rear passenger room was kind of tight behind my driver's seat settings, but certainly bearable. Forester seems like an excellent alternative between high SUVs and low cars... Too low and every little snow and ice debris hits the underneath of the vehicle, and too high and handling suffers, cross-winds affect you like crazy on highways... If the Forester was just a tad longer, it would ideal for my needs... as it is, it is a tiny bit small, but still excellent. I'll look for a slightly used Forester when I'm ready to change vehicles.

[X-Traction]

  I know Foresters have their fans, but a significant proportion of people who buy them hate them. 

I do not have a Forester, nor any Subaru (although I have had 2 of them); but I wonder what is the basis in fact for such a statement? Can you prove that or is that mere conjecture on your part? I have never heard of any such fact, and I am curious as to your source. 

I try not to post things I can't back up. 

If you look at the owner reviews on www.autos.msn.com, you'll find the reviews of the latest model years indicate the Forester is as good as people have claimed here.  For instance, 2004: one "bad" review out of 118.  For 2003, 6 out of 140. 

However, for 2001, the number goes up to 17/200.  That is a significant number of horror stories.  I didn't check other years.

Now, maybe the Forester had problems that have been corrected.  On the other hand, the problems may take a while to surface.

We have friends who bought a 2001 Outback new.  It was in the shop for repairs for more than 30 days the first year they had it.  They were afraid to use it on long trips in case it broke down.  So they negotiated a buy-back from Subaru and got a Forester.  They didn't like it, and soon replaced it with a Matrix, which they really like.  I find both the Forester and the Matrix a bit cramped inside.  The Forester, as an Impreza with a boxy body, didn't seem like enough quality vehicle for the money.  Anyway, I suppose knowing their experience skewed my view of the Forester.

The consumer complaints listings on the NHTSA webside aren't too bad for the model years of the Forester I checked.  It seems they have issues with rear wheel bearings, head gaskets, and the mysterious "sudden acceleration" problem.  The latter happened to our friends' Outback, and was one of the reasons they got rid of it.  Check out the 2002 Forester NHTSA records for more instances of this.

Bottom line is that I stand by my post as fair comment.

(The NHTSA complaint listings are a bit hard to find, so here's the link:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/complain/complaintsearch.cfm)

[mdxtasy]

Significant is a subjective term I guess.....it means different things to different people.  17/200.  Less than 10% in my books....it's not small, but it's not significant in my mind.  Whatever.....I think Subaru has done a good job to being one of the better Japanese offerings out there.  Even if some designs are fugly.

[ovr50]

I agree with Mdx's comments above, but if you think 8.5% of reported cases on a 5 year old vehicle is significant, it's OK with me. I just asked what your sources were, and you've posted them. Fair enough.

[X-Traction]

Probably you could get a more accurate picture by looking at the opinions.  I only counted the people with the worst experiences.  Although many gave the Forester 10/10, of course there was a whole spectrum down to the haters.  It's because of this that I have a "Whoa" reaction when I see the Forester promoted as something approaching the best car ever.  Perhaps that's an overreaction, perhaps not.

Oh, I have to point out that those reviews are not all recent ones.  They were written starting when the car hit the market, so they would amount to reviews of cars ranging from brand-new, to 4-5 years old.

Some of the stuff on the NHTSA site is frightening.

[66coronet]

Dodge Nitro SLT 4X4 with DCX's Rick Reuter, designer Joe Veltri and marketer Ralph Gilles

Three models are available: Dodge Nitro, Dodge Nitro SLT and Dodge Nitro R/T. Available on the Dodge Nitro and Dodge Nitro SLT is a 3.7-liter SOHC V-6 engine. It produces 210 hp (157 kW) @ 5,200 rpm and 235 lb.-ft. (319 Nom) @ 4,000 rpm. The Dodge Nitro R/T features a new 4.0-liter V-6 engine that delivers 255 hp (190 kW) @ 5,800 rpm and 275 lb.-ft. torque (360 Nom) @ 4,000 rpm. Standard on the Dodge Nitro R/T and optional on the Nitro SLT is a new performance suspension and 20-inch tires and chrome-clad aluminum wheels, providing performance-oriented drivers with fun-to-drive handling and a firm ride.

Three transmissions — one manual and two automatic — will be offered. The Dodge Nitro comes with a standard six-speed manual or optional four-speed automatic. The Dodge Nitro SLT has a standard four-speed automatic. The Dodge Nitro R/T has a standard five-speed automatic. All U.S. models offer 4x2 and 4x4 capability. The new mid-size SUV boasts excellent acceleration, braking, handling and towing capacity of 5,000 lbs. when properly equipped.

The Liberty's target market is primarily female, and the Nitro, with its pronounced wheel arches, is aimed at young males and families with a median age range of 25 to 45.

Reaching young male buyers won't be easy. For starters, there are roughly 19 compact SUVs in the U.S. auto market. Among the choices are the rugged Jeep Wrangler and Liberty, the brawny Nissan Xterra and new, pumped-up versions of the Toyota RAV4 and Hyundai Santa Fe available with third-row seats. Then there's the Ford Escape, the best-selling entry SUV until last year, when the Liberty pushed it off the throne. The Honda CR-V will be overhauled next fall.

"There are so many small utility vehicles out there that getting the message may be a question of screaming and shouting," said Jim Hall, an analyst with consulting firm AutoPacific.

As competitors expand engine offerings in small SUVs or make them roomier, it's apparent that Dodge won't be alone in its pursuit of male buyers.

Toyota's new FJ Cruiser is also aimed squarely at young males.

[Snowman]

Good work X-Traction. Subaru is not the “be all to end all” by any means. What I look for in an auto maker is how they deal with problems when they happen. I believe most Japanese makers go the extra to resolve issues.

[JohnnyVk]

Well Boyracer - Don't know if you have purchased yet, but I have now had the X-Trail SE AWD for 3 weeks (3,500km - had a ski trip to Quebec in there and a run to windsor), and can provide the following brief update:

The good

Love the PanaRoof    - Lets in so much sunlight that on a sunny day even when it is very cold outside you hardly need the heat on - can close the shade if you need a break from the sunshine

A great vehicle for skiing - the cargo area is quite durable - just toss the gear in and you can easily wipe up any melted snow later - the back pass through armrest can be removed (takes about 15 seconds) to significantly increase the pass through capacity.  With the arm rest out I could fit in 4 pairs of alpine and 2 pairs of cross country skis.

The bun warmers heat up the front seats quickly - great on a cold morning - the high level is almost a little too hot - but the low setting is just fine

Seating is quite comfortable and has been well tested in 3 and 7 hour drives

Visibility is great

Power is quite good in acceleration from stopped

In the class I think it looks pretty good.

The Bad

I have no problem with the centre instrument cluster - very easy to get used to but the car lack a little ambient lighting - it can make finding the cup holders, or seeing the wiper controls a little awkward during night driving - I suspect these will become second nature in due course

I have not really measured it but it seems that gas mileage is not quite as adverstised - not awful - but it seems like the gas gauge gets from full to half pretty quickly - I might have to test this on a trip.

Lacks top end juice - not really a surprise - with a full load in the car it doesn't really have much juice to pass going uphill on the 401 at 120kmph - it will pass you just need to be a little patient - guess I just have to rely on the 270hp in the TL for such pleasures. 


The Neutral

6 disc changer functions well and sounds decent - but - just doesn't come close to the 5 channel audio system in our TL - perhaps not a fair comparison

Overall

Very Happy    - Meeting expectations quite nicely -

[Trainman]

Well Boyracer - Don't know if you have purchased yet, but I have now had the X-Trail SE AWD for 3 weeks (3,500km - had a ski trip to Quebec in there and a run to windsor), and can provide the following brief update:



Overall

Very Happy    - Meeting expectations quite nicely -

Thanks for the update.  Good to hear some feedback like that.

[Trainman]

I have not really measured it but it seems that gas mileage is not quite as adverstised - not awful - but it seems like the gas gauge gets from full to half pretty quickly - I might have to test this on a trip.

Not sure if all Nissans are like this but our Pathfinder fuel gauge is off quite a bit.  Reading half a tank only will take 30 l (tank is 80 l), 3/4 empty will take 50 l.  So yes, do an actual measurement, you might be surprised.

[Benhaze]

Good comments JohnnyVk. My experience with the X-Trail SE AWD is very similar with yours. Though I have to add two more negative, or more disappointments, with X-Trail.

1. rough, rough 4 cylinder engine. Having driven many Hondas, this Nissan 4 cylinder engine is shaking the whole vehicle at idle. Can't tell what is the worse culprit, engine design or engine mounting. I wonder if the Altima fares better on that point... I haven't seen anything that bad since the early Saturns...

2. loud engine noise in the passenger compartment.

[JohnnyVk]

TM - thanks for the comment on the mileage - perhaps I'm in for a pleasant surprise

Ben - a little surprised by your comments - I have had the opposite experience - If I have not noted on this board before I have owned a few honda's ('81 Prelude, '91 Accord, and the recently referred to '04 TL {sweet ride})

I have not sensed any roughness at idle in the XT - strangely enough my '91 Accord used to do that - when in gear and adling (say at a traffic light) it would vibrate quite a bit and I got into the habit of moving the shifter to neutral

Your comment in the engine noise is also interesting - When we test drove the vehicle I recall more engine noise and accepted it as a by product of a "rugged" but smaller engined vehicle. - Perhaps it is an issue of expectation, but since we have had it we have been pleasantly surprised by the interior noise in the XT.  It frankly seems much less noisy than we (wife and I) recalled from our test drives.  After drving it for a while I took the TL for a couple of days last week.  What I noticed was actually about the same level of engine "noise" level in the TL, but the growl of the bigger power plant in the TL sounds better.  The TL definitely has less road (other than engine noise) noise - but - to be expected in a different class of vehicle.

JV 

[jpd]

Forester even in the base version is the best of all small SUVs!

[Benhaze]

JohnnyVk, you're right about the noise issue; it has a lot to do with expectations. For unfortunate family reasons, I ended driving a X-Trail for a couple of weeks and that's when I became very displeased with the vehicle NVH. Large 4 cyl. engines will always be prone to vibrate but I felt it was really excessive for a 2004MY vintage with 3000 Km. The owner is satisfied with the vehicle.

I haven't driven a new TL yet but I have a hard time believing the engine is not quieter. Now you got me very intrigued! And since you own one, I am in no position to argue with you. But the previous TL had no engine noise issue. Interesting.

[JohnnyVk]

Ben,

I may have misrepresented the TL engine noise.

It is definitely not loud or unpleasant, and cruising on the hwy it is not in the least bit intrusive.  I think what I noticed after driving the XT for a few days and getting into TL was that when I fired it up the TL had a lower, fuller sound.  The same under acceleration as one might like a sportier ride to have.  Once you are cruising the engine noise fades away and you can focus on the great audio system.

On the way home last night I paid a little extra attention to the XT in idle (i.e. at traffic light).  I did notice a little vibration, but definitely less than my '91 Accord.  By the way, the Accord is still running just fine - it is my brother's now.

JPD - I compared the Forester when I was shopping for my X-Trail.  I found that it was a little small for me (6'1") in the drive seat, and that the back seat floor space was a little akward for exiting the vehicle.  I won't pretend that the X-T is pretty inside, but the dash and gauges in the Forester had a bit of a cheap feel to me (personal aesthetics).  The forester definitely has a good rep, and there must be something to the Sub's because whenever I go skiing in Vermont I see a bunch of them.

JV

[y2chuck]

In that range (and from that list), it'd be the Subie.  Staying the segment, I'd pick the VUE Redline over all of them.

[Scaerio]

I'd pick the Forester because it would be the most fun to drive, being based on the Impreza platform.  Also has that dark-horse niche appeal. Or I'd pick the 4runner because it's indestructible.