Topic: Acura TSX vs VW Jetta GLI review.

[lebowski]

ok, i can totally appreciate the jewelry box analogy. but then are you not just talking about a luxury feature? must premium always refer to a car's appearance and a car's interior? what about how it was engineered? does the extra time, thought, and money put into the mechanical and structural details of a car alone - which then causes the cost and retail price of the car to increase - make it not a premium car over others in it's class?

how about a land rover defender 90 vs. a jeep wrangler? you're paying a lot more for a car that has a crappier-looking interior than the jeep, yet is probably more capable at what it does due to it's superior engineering and build quality. and the defender is priced at a serious premium over the wrangler - partially because of it's snob appeal, yes, but mostly because it is a premium vehicle over the wrangler because it is a better, more expensive tool for the job.

as for the boxer engine, it's just another cool feature on the list. i'm sure it helps a lot more in a high performance car like the WRX, but the whole idea of the engine - giving the car a lower center of gravity, must surely be useful in any application in the subaru line.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

I don't think we can change opinions here. 'Luxury' and 'Premium' are ambiguous terms, and everyone has their own take on it. Is Kia Amanti with luxury features (neon front turn signals, HIDs, leather, auto climate control, huge inside, cushy ride) a luxury car? Is a stripped luxury brand with cloth seats luxury or poseur? Who's to say.

Engineering to me is a big part of what makes something premium. I do honestly believe Subaru is almost there with it, but more on it's upper range newer cars than the lower older ones.

Some things I just think you PAY A PREMIUM for because you want that specific item or capability, but that doesn't necessarily make the product premium all-round. For example, the Subaru may have one of the best AWD systems, engines and stability and excellent safety, and if that's of concern to you you'll pay to get that equipment, but it's not for the car itself. Or you'll pay for the Defender 90 capability because you need something to traverse the desert with or forde some rivers - you're right, it's the best tool for the job - but that doesn't mean it's premium.

Actually, I get what you're saying. Quit makin' me think I guess if you are paying for a specific thing and want the most capable product/vehicle to serve the purpose, and are buying the most expensive version of it with the most features and quality and construction, and thus you would be essentially purchasing the premium product. However, I would stress that price alone does not make premium to me.

But with cars, it has to be all-round with me because nearly all cars on the market are so darned good nowadays.

[footlong58]

ok, i can totally appreciate the jewelry box analogy. but then are you not just talking about a luxury feature? must premium always refer to a car's appearance and a car's interior? what about how it was engineered? does the extra time, thought, and money put into the mechanical and structural details of a car alone - which then causes the cost and retail price of the car to increase - make it not a premium car over others in it's class?

Price doesn't mean it's a premium car....  If Chevy made a $50,000 Cobalt, with similar performance and features to the Audi A4, does that make the Chevy a premium car?  Certainly not...
There is more to the premium category than price...  Quality, Service, Branding, Performance...  The overall experience with the car AND the company...

[Snowman]

I equate premium to be a well thought out design along with the quality of materials used, fitment, and durability factor into this. I would rather have a well designed non luxury car with the above attributes than one which is perceived as having them.

[footlong58]

I equate premium to be a well thought out design along with the quality of materials used, fitment, and durability factor into this. I would rather have a well designed non luxury car with the above attributes than one which is perceived as having them.

Absolutley...  But if you are buying a luxury car, this should all be a given... Hopefully... 

[lebowski]

i really appreciate all these interesting points. perhaps  my definition of a premium car is different from the conventional one, but at the end of the day it's clear to me that we're beholden to the jargon spewed out by both auto journalists and car company marketing departments. it is they who decide when a car with premium features should be labeled a premium car.  is the car company itself prestigious enough? is there enough leather inside, enough displacement in the engine, enough electronic gizmos, etc.?

a lot of this is splitting hairs. certainly AWD alone does not make a premium car, but how many premium features - inside, outside, and underneath -  does a car need to qualify? this will be the last i speak of subarus, and possibly the last time i ever type  the word "premium"  for the record i've never owned a subaru, and i love my Acura TSX, a japanese/american premium (oops)  luxury car, or was it a European family car???

[sirAQUAMAN64]

Let's leave it as a "darned good one"!

 

Where are photos of this infamous TSX of yours anyhow?
Care to post some in the "Reader's Rides" section?

[lebowski]

yeah, for sure. i don't have any pix of her but i'll take some tomorrow morning. she's filthy and she's bone-stock, but she's mine 

[G0dspd]

Premium was a word invented by an executive from a car company to make people believe that the car they bought was somehow better than the other models (... or other competitors on the market) just because their vehicle had a few more gimmicks.

These days, we have a general idea of what a premium car is but when you look at cars on a case by case basis, there are numerous grey areas.  Especially with the arrival of the technologies that were once lavish but they're now standard features in common cars.

[JSCC]

I don't see VW in the same category as Acura, BMW, Infiniti, etc...  By some of the reasoning here, a $45,000 Pontiac Bonnieville is more of a "premium" vehicle than a 323i, because it's a price other premium cars are?

An old AMC Eagle has AWD... Does that make it a "premium" vehicle?

I don't see Acura being in the same category as Infiniti and BMW either.

[footlong58]

I don't see VW in the same category as Acura, BMW, Infiniti, etc...  By some of the reasoning here, a $45,000 Pontiac Bonnieville is more of a "premium" vehicle than a 323i, because it's a price other premium cars are?

An old AMC Eagle has AWD... Does that make it a "premium" vehicle?

I don't see Acura being in the same category as Infiniti and BMW either.

Interesting... Here are two articles that say otherwise...  Acura performed pretty well against the guys they aren't supposed to be in the same category with... And scored even higher than VW's Audi cars...     Does that mean Audi has even less of right being compared to Infiniti and BMW 

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=7785
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9993

[is_dead]

I drive a Jetta and I love it, but I still don't think the GLI should 'win' and the Acura TSX should 'lose'. Basically I disagree that they are apples to apples.

The GLI is an optioned out super version of a relativley plain jane car. The TSX tends to be sold as a single model. Acura buyers like this aspect of the TSX, and would probably dislike the Jetta for this exact reason. In fact almost every German car is a bit frustrating to buy because just to pay for the options you could buy a whole other car. Acura buyers really like the fact that with one package they don't get dinged on options and negotiating price and knowing what others pay is much simpler.

My parents could conceivably own the TSX, but no way for the GLI. They just wouldn't see the value in optioning out a 26K car to 38G when a TSX can be had for 35.

There were some great TSX photos of a SEMA version with bright red guages and aluminum interior, improved suspension, body kit. Maybe that one would be more appropriate for comparison. Couldn't find the photos on a brief search though.

[winson]

That's true, but a TSX can be had in base trim in other places like Europe.

[robarakira]

I think VW and the Honda group each has their own group of followers that tend not to interbreed.  Personally I feel at home (happily familiar) in a newer honda product, whereas I find the VWs can feel strange.  I'm sure the feeling goes both ways.

[avif]

That's true, but a TSX can be had in base trim in other places like Europe.

Actually, the TSX have the exterior of the Euro Accord and the interior of Japan's Inspire (Used to be NA's Inspire). The interior of the Euro Accord is used in the current USDM Accord. Then there is some differences in the engine...different compression rate or something bla bla bla....

[JSCC]

I don't see VW in the same category as Acura, BMW, Infiniti, etc...  By some of the reasoning here, a $45,000 Pontiac Bonnieville is more of a "premium" vehicle than a 323i, because it's a price other premium cars are?

An old AMC Eagle has AWD... Does that make it a "premium" vehicle?

I don't see Acura being in the same category as Infiniti and BMW either.

Interesting... Here are two articles that say otherwise...  Acura performed pretty well against the guys they aren't supposed to be in the same category with... And scored even higher than VW's Audi cars...     Does that mean Audi has even less of right being compared to Infiniti and BMW 

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=7785
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9993

I don't know footlong58, when I was with Acura, the dealership gave me the feeling that they were not treating their customers as luxury buyers.
To tell you the truth, I think the customers and the sales staff were treated like idiots.

[bassix]

Of course in the winter, I'd rather keep my "premium" boots clean in an Impreza, than have to go shovel and push in the slush and snow.

[bassix]

six airbags are great -  but (and you saw this coming  )  i'd rather not have to use any airbags, so i'll take the AWD, a premium feature by my definition, and greater low-end torque and get the hell outta dodge before an accident occurrs. and as zippy as the new Si surely must be, the WRX is, well, the WRX.

L

Well this discussion is going nowhere... but so anything that has AWD is considered a premium vehicle in you opinion? Aerio, Matrix, old Vitara, etc? Yeah... anything can be considered premium then, uh?

And as nice as AWD is, it really is not realistic to say that having AWD will allow you to escape all accidents... I'd wage that in more than 90% of the cases, there isn't a single thing you could have done to prevent a collision. So passive safety is a must.

What constitutes premium-ness to me is level of engine refinement (smoothness, noise, torque curve), high speed stability, wind noise, interior quality (both materials and design/layout), solid door "thunk" when closing (don't laugh, there is a huge difference between econoboxes and premium vehicles), attention to details (side-blinkers, antenna integrated into windshield or short antenna at the back of the roof, etc.), quality of headlights, quality of sound system.

Take out their AWD system and the Subarus are forgettable and wouldn't stand a chance on the market IMO.

I cannot consider anything that I can afford as premium... is that a good enough definition? LOL

Seriously, "premium" really cannot apply to anything less than an S-Class or 7-Series, or (for the AWD fans like me) an A8. (I'd say the Phaeton, but that would REALLY open a can of worms!)

[kenobe23]

Ah, I think we're getting somewhere. This is a great discussion.

To me premium as a concept has become very distorted. In theory, you pay more for something because it is of higher quality. Displaying high quality goods in turn gives you prestige because a) you can afford good quality things, and b) because you can identify something of good quality.

Nowadays, lots of people with poor judgment can afford nicer things. These people buy goods that look expensive but don't have quality to match the price (eg. Mercedes products.) That's not to say that style has no value, but to many these days brand value and luxury appointments mean more than build quality.

[mdxtasy]

I cannot consider anything that I can afford as premium... is that a good enough definition? LOL

STOP THE PRESSES!  We have a winner!