Topic: POLL: Winters vs All-Season Tires

[PJungnitsch]

Actually installing snow tire if you live in Vancouver is about the BEST thing you can do. As so many people here cannot drive in the snow, and half of them will be in crappy all season tires or summer tires, at least you can get around. Or out of the way!!!

It was the same in Lethbridge, where winter is pretty intermittent (I drove my motorcycle at least once every winter month the first year I lived there). As a friend who also moved there from the north said, "Easy to tell when it snowed because everyone was wrapped around a lightpole."

[Baba]

Morty:

Canada wide surveys may not tell an accurate story.

Quebec drivers would have >90% winter tires, it being the law but possibly some non compliance drivers.  Vancouver would have much lower than average because it does not snow as much.  We had all seasons on both cars (MB ML320 and Maxima).  We lived in North Van and had a very very steep driveway.  The ML never had a problem and the Maxima was sometimes a big problem getting it out of the driveway but no problems once (if!) we got out of the driveway in the 4 winters we spent there.

Still, on a new car I would install Winter tires because the only real cost is opportunity costs - 2 sets of tires last as long as 2 sets of tires whether bought at the same time or one after the other.  And yes the costs of changing the tires twice every year.  Is the cost of changing tires every year worth the much better safety?  You bet!

[davidy]

Quebec drivers would have >90% winter tires, it being the law but possibly some non compliance drivers.

I recall hearing that, even prior to the last year's winter tire law, Quebec had the highest % of drivers/owners with winter tires....probably in the 80 percentile. The law just got the remainder to get their winter tires.

Personally, I would like to see a similar winter tire law for BC and all other Canadian provinces. There might be an exemption for certain locations or uses in the lower mainland or the southern Vancouver Island.

Dave

[DKaz]

I think in Vancouver, not having winter tires is even worse because of all the hills. You might get away with all-seasons in the snow on flat land, but they're just about useless trying to get you to stop on a downhill slope.

[davidy]

Burnaby is usually quite bad. Each winter, there is usually a newscast video of a number of vehicles sliding down steeply graded, icy roads...bumping or crashing into others.....all typically have three season tires on their vehicles.

Dave

[DKaz]

But man are they ever a source of entertainment. Look up Seattle, Portland, or Vancouver snow drivers on YouTube.

I love this one... SUV go up the hill... SUV go down the hill. lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqfDEqB7MJE

[random006]

Morty:

Canada wide surveys may not tell an accurate story.

Quebec drivers would have >90% winter tires, it being the law but possibly some non compliance drivers.

Actually, Quebec had at least 90% prior to the law.  The point of the law was to get the remaining 10% to comply.  Accident report data show that same 10% was involved somehow in 38% of all the wintertime accidents in the province.

[Rupert]

If using winter tires and driving at the same careful speed as using all season tires...then yes there would be less accidents. There would be more margin of safety. That does not happen though does it...users just drive up to a higher comfort level speed and the larger margin is gone and the same number of accidents occur albeit at a higher speed and possibly worse injuries. It would be interesting to see some propper stats on before and after mandating in Quebec. 10% are involved in 38% is not very meaningful. How many of the 10% actually caused anything. Since 90% have winter tires then it is highly likely that accidents involving two cars or more, in the 38%, would include other cars with winter tires who's drivers may have been at fault. We don't know...but it may be the case that the 90% of winter tired cars were involved in 100% of the accidents involving two or more cars.

This is not to say that winter tires do not have merrit when considering better grip and traction...if you need it where you live. At the expense of the well being of the planet.

[random006]

If using winter tires and driving at the same careful speed as using all season tires...then yes there would be less accidents. There would be more margin of safety. That does not happen though does it...users just drive up to a higher comfort level speed and the larger margin is gone and the same number of accidents occur albeit at a higher speed and possibly worse injuries. It would be interesting to see some propper stats on before and after mandating in Quebec. 10% are involved in 38% is not very meaningful. How many of the 10% actually caused anything. Since 90% have winter tires then it is highly likely that accidents involving two cars or more, in the 38%, would include other cars with winter tires who's drivers may have been at fault. We don't know...but it may be the case that the 90% of winter tired cars were involved in 100% of the accidents involving two or more cars.

This is not to say that winter tires do not have merrit when considering better grip and traction...if you need it where you live. At the expense of the well being of the planet.

You are making an assumption here that all drivers behave in a way as to cause accidents.  One can't simply assume that people will drive like idiots across the board.  Sure there are quite a few who do, although recent highway drives have shown to me that their number might be dropping.

The rest of your post doesn't make any sense.  Of course winter tire shod vehicles are involved in accidents in Quebec, including those that involve the all-season users.  The point of those stats is that all-season tire users are involved in a number of accidents that is disproportionate with their percentage of the total driving population.  Part of your argument seems to stem from the assumption that most of that 38% are somehow blameless victims rather than active participants in the accident.  If that is what you are claiming then I would rethink your statement.  Are you implying that winter tire drivers are somehow ganging up on their all-season brethren?

As an experiment, let us assume that the level of idiocy and bad luck will be the same in both the winter tire group AND the all-season group. (Although I would question even this because the voluntary use of winter tires automatically indicates a smarter person from the get-go but I digress).  Then the accident rates of the winter tire group could be no worse than the all-season group and possibly better simply because of the extra grip afforded by winter tires.  Right away it can be seen that the numbers should show 90% involvement by the winter tire group and 10% by the all-season group.  Since this outcome is NOT the case and in fact the all-season group are involved at a rate almost 4 times their population, we are led to the conclusion that there is something about all-seasons which are inherently less safe in winter conditions.

Ovr, Johngenx, care to throw your opinions in here?  I can't explain the above situation any better, nor am I completely sure exactly what Rupert is trying to say or imply.

As a final note, consider the recent experience of our own wing, aka James Bergeron, when he had a tester with all-seasons.  He remarked that the difference was startling.  Wing, care to comment?

[Rupert]

If the thrust for mandated winter tires is to be proceded with, then lets have some propper statistics on accidents and their severity...before and after mandating, in a place. Grip and safety at the speeds used 'prior' to usage is not desputed but if speed increases and accidents stay the same then having two complete sets of tires for every car is not ecological and is overly expensive for some who manage and have managed very well with engine over drive and all season radials for years, in less precipitous areas. Heaven forbid if accidents and their severity are worse with mandated winter tires...what would have been achieved. Please do not repeat the old addage that all season is no season...and 10% are involved in 38%.
Snow tires are different and required by individuals to get moving in snowy areas but they know this and do not need to be told. So lets have the facts...accurate stats...before going this route. What would be the point of going down this road if at the end of the day more people are hospitalised for longer periods.
I hope that the above explains my point.

This is not to imply that those who want to use ice tires should not...It should be a personal choice in my opinion. Leave it to the individual to make up his/her own mind. Front wheel drive on radial all season tires was a huge improvement over biased ply and rear wheel drive. To the point where for many, knobbly snows were not required.
Let's study some accurate data before we go down this road.

[random006]

If the thrust for mandated winter tires is to be proceded with, then lets have some propper statistics on accidents and their severity...before and after mandating, in a place. Grip and safety at the speeds used 'prior' to usage is not desputed but if speed increases and accidents stay the same then having two complete sets of tires for every car is not ecological and is overly expensive for some who manage and have managed very well with engine over drive and all season radials for years, in less precipitous areas. Heaven forbid if accidents and their severity are worse with mandated winter tires...what would have been achieved. Please do not repeat the old addage that all season is no season...and 10% are involved in 38%.
Snow tires are different and required by individuals to get moving in snowy areas but they know this and do not need to be told. So lets have the facts...accurate stats...before going this route. What would be the point of going down this road if at the end of the day more people are hospitalised for longer periods.
I hope that the above explains my point.

This is not to imply that those who want to use ice tires should not...It should be a personal choice in my opinion. Leave it to the individual to make up his/her own mind. Front wheel drive on radial all season tires was a huge improvement over biased ply and rear wheel drive. To the point where for many, knobbly snows were not required.
Let's study some accurate data before we go down this road.

You keep saying that the stats already quoted are not proper.  I say: PROVE IT.  Provide links with the analysis showing conclusively that the stats are at least compromised by being incomplete or sloppy, if not wrong altogether.

You also keep going on about people speeding up and therefore maintaining some average number of accidents.  Again I say:  PROVE IT.

Until such time, I cannot accept your argument.

[Rupert]

One would hope that the powers that be are diagnosing the Quebec experience from reasonable data...if it is available...considering the large amount of money and the carbon footprint that is involved.

[HeliDriver]

I can see Rupert's point. I know that I certainly drive faster with winter tires. Not to the point of being an idiot, but certainly faster than I would drive under the same conditions with all-seasons.

Whether or not most people do the same, or whether that is reflected in accident statistics is an interesting question, IMO.

I've posted this before, but here is an interesting article that may be relevant: http://www.drivers.com/article/164/ .

From the article:

"People have a sort of built-in danger thermostat, he says, a subconscious sense of ambient risk. Make things safer in one aspect of their lives, and they will tend to use up this safety benefit by adapting their behaviour to the new reality and increasing risk-taking in another. He calls the theory Risk Homeostasis.

Recent revelations about the effects of automobile antilock braking systems (ABS) on crash rates lend weight to Professor Wilde's theory. The systems work. They help prevent skidding and offer drivers better control in emergencies. But evidence shows that drivers with ABS-equipped vehicles tend to drive faster and rely more on their brakes than drivers who don't have the devices. According to the U.S. Highway Loss Data Institute the systems have not reduced either the frequency or the cost of crashes."

[Canada Stig]

I'm not quite sure about the "carbon footprint" argument - 2 sets of tires (summer/winter) will last as long as one set of all seasons, to be replaced by another set of all seasons.  The number of tires produced should stay about the same, although winters do wear out faster.

I don't think winter tires should be mandatory, but for many they are a good idea.  I really don't think they are necessary in places like the GTA, given the plowing/salting that goes on, and the glacially slow speeds of our roads if they are snow covered, but certainly in some areas, and for higher performance cars (or H rated or higher all season equipped cars) they are a good idea, even in the GTA.

I do think the designation of tires should be regulated, however, rather than the industry self-regulating.  There are some good all season tires out there (BF Goodrich Traction TA, Yokohama AVID, Michelin Harmony/Destiny for example) that outperform a lot of cheaper winter tires in winter.  But there are also a lot of all seasons that are definately NOT for all seasons - my Continental ProContacts are really a "summer" tire, despite the all season designation.

I also had a set of Michelin MX4 tires on an old 88 Accord that were not designated all season, but did great in the snow nonetheless.

Read the reviews - TireRack has some outstanding reviews on their site - and buy accordingly.

[Black Hatch]

I can see Rupert's point. I know that I certainly drive faster with winter tires. Not to the point of being an idiot, but certainly faster than I would drive under the same conditions with all-seasons.

Whether or not most people do the same, or whether that is reflected in accident statistics is an interesting question, IMO.

+1
I drive faster with winter tires as well.
You know you have higher traction limit and thats why you drive to that limit.

Always wondered if they made everyone have winter tires, would there be less of an incentive for the maintenance crews to sand/salt and plow the roads.

Another question that bothers me is can they charge you for driving unsafely if you are going the speed limit (WITH winter tires on) even if the road is slippery.
 eg 100kph on the highway (when the radio or tv advisory says that the highway is slippery)

[blur911]

It's the second anniversary of the death of two friends of mine.  One I went to high school in NB with, and somehow ended up working with in Ontario, and another that I worked beside for many years.  Both had young children.

They were on the way home from work when they lost control in light snow in an 80kph zone and skidded sideways into the path of an SUV. 
Rob always said he got along fine with all-seasons, never got stuck. He stuck to secondary highways and drove slowly so said he didn't need winter tires, it was just his A to B car and he had higher priorities.

[knuckles]

Hmm, I answered all seasons, and it turns out I am in the vast minority. I have heard that they are better, and that would be expected, but are they THAT much better as to pay for a whole new set? Also, might be a dumb question, but do they effect your insurance rates in anyway?

[random006]

Hmm, I answered all seasons, and it turns out I am in the vast minority. I have heard that they are better, and that would be expected, but are they THAT much better as to pay for a whole new set? Also, might be a dumb question, but do they effect your insurance rates in anyway?

In snowy or icy conditions the answer is YES.  Obviously, a region where the temperature rarely drops below 7 deg. Celcius and almost never below 0, will not offer much to show the effectiveness of winter tires.  However, if you do experience winter as most Canadians do, then the softer rubber as well as the different tread/siping on winter tires will make a huge difference.

So, if your driving corresponds to the aforementioned snowy or icy conditions and you don't use winter tires, then perhaps you ought to consider an alternate nickname on this site in the winter:   white knuckles.

EDIT:  I don't know about insurance changes but that is a very good question.

[tpl]

I am with The Personal Insurance Co and I get a discount for having winter tires.  A new thing for them started in the 2008/2009 winter

[overtakeyouintheleftlane]

tpl - I'm with The Personal as well, 5% off per year, which is about $10 a month, which is basically my next set of tires after 5 years.

knuckles -  "I have heard that they are better, and that would be expected, but are they THAT much better as to pay for a whole new set?" - Worth every penny. The ability to stop and turn is much more improved, you have to have them to actually experience the difference. You can't put a price on the difference it makes with safety.

"Also, might be a dumb question, but do they effect your insurance rates in anyway?" - Depends on the company, As stated above, The Personal gives a discount, same with Bel-Air Direct and DesJardins. It doesn't hurt to ask your current company if they would give you a discount. You won't get it if you don't ask!