Author Topic: Liars - politicians and oil companies!  (Read 2570 times)

Offline ovr50

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2005, 03:43:17 pm »
No one forced ppl to go out and buy the mega house (or lakefront/ski cottage)during times of inflated real estate prices and use variable interest rate financing to do it - BUT a lot of ppl did just that; or refinanced upwards their existing mortgage to buy some "toy" - BUT a lot of ppl did that too.

If rates go up, as they must eventually, there will be some pain (mostly self-inflicted). I can't get really sorry for those that "spent" themselves into a problem. It's not any different than over-running your credit card limits and having to pay 24% interest.

The cycles just keep on going...and going...and every time it's "this time, it's different" - BS, I say... :banghead: :banghead:

BTW - there are actually eight refineries knocked out by Katrina.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 04:04:49 pm by ovr50 »
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Offline Snowman

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2005, 04:07:29 pm »
CNN said that there were 28 oil rig platforms missing. I think the severity of the problem has not hit yet.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2005, 04:33:19 pm »
I agree that most of the potential pain is self-inflicted.  People have just gone spending crazy and consumerism has gone nuts.  No one pays for anyhting anymore, instead basing their entire lives on payments.

However, the real killer is to the the lowest 25% of income earning families.  Many of those families have experienced stangant wages and periods of unemployment and they tend to have expensive debt.  A rise in interest rates won't hurt them so much (as they already pay super-high rates) but any rise in the unemployment rates resulting from an overshot of economy cooling will be devasting.

Also, energy consumption is a very high percentage of their incomes.  You can say "drive less" but we're also talking about heating their homes.  I can afford to install an ultra-high efficiency furnace (did) but most of those families cannot.  Natural gas forward prices are VERY high.  It's likely that a typical heating bill in January in Edmonton this year will be in the $400+ range.  Also, low income families tend to live in older homes with sub-standard insulation and cannot afford to retrofit or move to a newer home.

Many people I meet, when presented with this, simply say "those folks should just get better jobs and make more money."  Easy to say.  I have worked with hundreds of low income families and most have a hole that is very difficult to climb out of.  Many are disabled in some form and often have a multi-generational history of abuse and illness, mental and physical.

We should not step away from market pricing of energy.  It's the only way that we'll ever begin to conserve it.  However, we need to take more radical steps to conserve it AND keep the prices stable until we can work out some alternatives.  This is why I say that the market is not always perfect.  Even though someone can afford to drive a Hummer doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.  Market forces were not responsible for the creation of the high standard of living of the First World.  It was using the market to create economic wealth that was driving a stable platform of socialist social policies.  Stability is the key to prosperity and we need to bring it back and combine it with a real long term plan for managing our energy consumption and relaiance on short-term inventories.
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Offline Scaerio

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2005, 04:38:42 pm »
In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, there appears to be sufficent oil and gas to replace lost Gulf of Mexico production, especially now that the Administration has today announced that companies can borrow from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. The problem is the lack of refineries to process the oil into gasoline and other products, with the Gulf coast refineries out of production.  Complicating matters, it is not yet known if there has been any pipeline damage that would prevent Gulf coast refined gasoline from moving to market. Presuming no damage impeding operations, refineries and pipelines need power restored to work.
 
That said, a wave of speculation is running through the country today that there is a coming shortage of gasoline.  How much and for how long will depend on how soon Gulf coast refineries are operational and shipping product. There is little spare refining capacity in the USA or Canada. 45% of US refining capacity is on the Gulf Coast; but only 10% in the area that took the direct impact of the hurricane.  It is not yet clear how much of this capacity will be out of commission for an extended period; optimists hope that all of it can be running again with power restored.  The US simply does not yet have a clear picture of how serious or not a gasoline supply crunch might be; the next 48 hours should tell the tale.
 
The Administration expects that any shortage will be most acute in the mid-West and further east to Michigan.  Complicating matters is the fact that many Americans are responding to the expected shortage by rushing out and filling up, including additional gas cans.  There are also sporadic reports of price gouging and DOE has set up a hot line to receive complaints.  The Administration is asking the public not to panic, not to hoard and denying that it is anywhere near needing to impose any rationing. The Administration is underlying that there are also some gasoline inventories throughout the country.
 
The Administration is working with OPEC and the International Energy Agency (IEA) to see what can be done.  Saudi Arabia has announced that it will ramp up its production to 11 million barrels/day  (up 0.5 million barrels/day).  IEA members who are net importers of oil and gas (not Canada) must keep a 90 day stock and make it available to other members during emergencies. That said, again the problem does not appear to be access to oil and gas, but rather lack of refining capacity to produce gasoline, and possible other oil products (jet fuel). Most likely supplier would be refineries from Western Europe, from which gasoline shipments would still have a 5-6 day shipping delay to get product to the USA.

« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 04:40:42 pm by Scaerio »
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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2005, 10:06:35 pm »
I had a conference with some of the American distributors earlier on today. Most of them are fear of fuel shortage. When there is a fuel shortage, gasoline will be the 1st when it got stockpile of gas barrels and gas-related products will suffered a lot.

Offline paulk

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2005, 04:52:34 am »
johngenx, are you serious that home heating costs in Edmonton may be $400/month this winter?  I'm moving out there for a new job in November.  Those prices will be quite a shock.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2005, 08:44:43 am »
johngenx, are you serious that home heating costs in Edmonton may be $400/month this winter?  I'm moving out there for a new job in November.  Those prices will be quite a shock.

We've had average bills in the $300 range before, but November gas futures are the highest ever.  A typical home in Edmonton uses about 30gJ of gas in a winter month and at $10/gJ, that will be $300 for gas.  Delivery charges and taxes will drive it up to $400 or a bit more...

Back when I worked in the utility biz, part of my job was forecasting gas prices.  I am one of the few locked into a long term low price contract.

Offline sparky

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2005, 08:57:13 am »
What infuriates me is the oil companies' obscene eagerness to cash in on the human misery of Katrina. The gas on hand at the stations obviously was refined, bought and paid for long before the hurricane came along. So why the sudden increase from 96 cents three days ago to (so help me) $1.35 last night. It's the same freaking gas. It's price gouging, that's all. And any attempt to justify it by referring to the Gulf disaster or the world market is hypocrisy bordering on criminal fraud. >:(

Offline No H2O

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2005, 09:37:42 am »
What infuriates me is the oil companies' obscene eagerness to cash in on the human misery of Katrina. The gas on hand at the stations obviously was refined, bought and paid for long before the hurricane came along. So why the sudden increase from 96 cents three days ago to (so help me) $1.35 last night. It's the same freaking gas. It's price gouging, that's all. And any attempt to justify it by referring to the Gulf disaster or the world market is hypocrisy bordering on criminal fraud. >:(

EXACTLY! I can only hope the CEOs of those companies have a fatal heart attack the day after they retire. I wish them the worst.
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Offline Wetson

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2005, 09:39:47 am »
It costs OPEC $4 US to produce and ship 1 barrel of crude.    In Venezuala you can fill up your gas tank for around $2 US.

Offline chris

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2005, 09:54:11 am »
I very much doubt this will stop the whining about gas prices but one can but try.

The attached link is to a GLobe article about the supply and demand economics of gas:
http://www.globeinvestor.com/servlet/ArticleNews/story/RTGAM/20050901/wkrefining0901

As has been mentioned before, gasoline is a commodity which is subject to continent wide supply and demand forces. 

Also, one should note that gasoline (unlike heating oil/nat gas) is a discretionary item.  If you don't like the price, don't buy it.  What's the problem??? 

Offline sparky

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2005, 10:35:31 am »
Cute bathtub analogy, Chris, but it doesn't (so to speak) hold any water. There is one reason and one reason alone why your corner gas bar raises prices as soon as the words "refinery" and "hurricane" appear in the same news report: filthy, naked greed. Why not make 32 cents' profit on a litre instead of two cents? No one was going to send a truck from New York and empty the tanks at my neighborhood gas bar. World markets will kick in soon enough, because for the first time there may be a REAL shortage of refined product. There was no excuse for profiteering on the gas on hand.

Offline ovr50

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2005, 10:40:12 am »
Chris - I posted that same Globe&Mail link in the "Gas Prices - Effect?" thread last night and I agree with you 100%. What a bunch of whiners and criers based on a total MISUNDERSTANDING of how the system of oil extraction, refining and marketing of gas works. A knee-jerk reaction with zero thought.

Scapegoats everywhere - except ourselves. WE are the energy pigs of the world and when the price of CHEAP energy is raised, we howl. No one says - hey, we need to take steps to ensure our energy consumption is more in line with the rest of the world.

I tired already of the guys/gals at the pumps filling up their large trucks, Hummers and Hemis and COMPLAINING and BLAMING everyone but themselves.

Educate yourselves before you mouth off. Try and make your opinion an informed one instead of just a knee-jerk reaction because gas prices are taking away your Starbuck's money.

Sad.  :(

Offline hashole

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2005, 10:44:18 am »
Good article Chris....there is no distinct Canadian energy market. The US and Canadian energy market are operationally one entity....why..NAFTA. If thats troubling to some then thats another discussion. I find most Canadians donot understand this and it shows everytime calls like 'the government should do something' or 'lets regulate gas prices' go out. Please!! I dont like/trust politicians any more than the next guy but lets complain or blame people actually involved. You are mad with the price at the pump....call your oil company for an explanation why refining capacity issues have been allowed to linger for years. Call market speculators for why their valuations results in $70/barrel. And lets not forget to call ourselves on this for creating record high demand for energy which might very well be the key issue.

Offline sparky

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2005, 11:07:51 am »
Chris, ovr. hashole,
You're all off-topic. No one doubts that it's going to be costly in the long run, sharing our petroleum market with the world's most wasteful country. What I'm talking about is the retroactive re-pricing of all the gas and oil already in the system and ready to sell to the consumer. That's sheer greed.

Offline ovr50

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2005, 11:14:24 am »
You can't replace your inventory if you sell your product for the old price...quite simple really.

Offline sparky

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2005, 11:29:05 am »
Now you're saying multbillion-dollar integrated oil companies operate like mom-and-pop corner stores, scrimping and saving for their next trip to the cash-and-carry. These are not shoestring operations, ovr, and I think you know better.

Offline Driver

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2005, 11:32:36 am »
Ovr, bang on with your response.  No businessman would want to sell cheap gas when reorder cost for the same stuff is expensive.  Let's put ourselves in that guy's shoes. 

1. Sell cheap gas till station tanks bottoms out
2. Order new delivery of more expensive gas using money from previous sales, minus payroll and other operating expense
3. Sell at current prices but tanks are half full. 
4. If consumption stays the same, station tanks bottoms out early

Your neighborhood gas bar would then run into shortage until he comes up with his previous earnings to re-invest into gas inventory so that folks who are mad at him for selling gas @ 1.40 can get their gas... thankless job I say. 

Offline ovr50

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Re: Liars - politicians and oil companies!
« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2005, 12:09:57 pm »
Sparky - the Province of NFLD tried to hold the line on pricing at about 20c/L under NA market prices. It lasted about one day as they soon realized that all gas destined for Nfld retailers would NOT come to them if they were selling under market, it would be diverted to "market price" areas. It took them ONE day to realize it's not a Nfld or Canadian market for gasoline - it's NA and somewhat Global.

Yes, in factt I do know better; others don't seem to understand when they say "well, the federal Govt. can just say this is the price in Canada". Fine, if you want no supply, go ahead.

Shoestring or not - rules of supply/demand and market pricing still prevail.