Topic: New SAE horsepower numbers

[hondasalesguy]

I know Honda will readjusting HP numbers for 2006 models to reflect the new SAE ratings. Even with this being the case, the Accords both still go UP slightly, as will the new Civic with the all new 1.8L and 2.0L SiR engines. I am guessing Odyssey and the other V6 vehicles will drop slightly, by less than 5 HP though.

Does anybody know which manufacturers will be using the new numbers and why it is not mandated that everybody does? I hear DC is claiming they don't feel it is necessary to retest their cars. But without everybody using the new SAE numbers it wll be mighty confusing for the consumer who doesn't know any better.

[paulk]

Does anyone really base their purchasing decisions on horsepower differences of less than 5%?

[hondasalesguy]

Not if a model dips slightly due to the new SAE regs. But if they look at a car measured the OLD way and another measured the new way, they aren't getting an accurate comparison.

[ovr50]

HSG - were you away? - we talked about this issue before at:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/discus/messages/67/39095.html?1124799639

New calculation rules at SAE result in some engines gaining/some losing calculated HP. It is very confusing as not all makers are retesting and it doesn't appear to be required?!?

[hondasalesguy]

i didn't see that thread. so it is going to be a major fustercluck for customers then isn't it...

[A4_tom]

I am wondering how Nissan is going to respond, with their usual overrated hp in their cars.

[ovr50]

"major fustercluck for customers"

Could be if the proper explanations are not given by the salesperson (and knowing the mentality of some salespeople, they will either not present it properly or use it as a tool to degrade their competition). I can't understand why all makers are not required to retest and state the new HP numbers?!?  

No knock on you, HSG, but some salesppl are not as capable as others.

[AVToller]

I had to explain to MY salesman about the change in hp ratings on the cars he is trying to sell, and I think he is a pretty good sales rep. Of course, I live in a very sleepy town and there is precious little competition. It makes for a bit of laziness. If you want an import, you buy Toyota or you go at least 85 km over the Hump to shop.

[The Mighty Duck]

The domestic guys say they under-guess their HP, and as such anything using the same drive train as last year won't be retested...  only those cars where the drivetrain has changed.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

If car magazines actually put their test vehicles on dynamometers, then we'd know the real numbers regardless of the smoke manufacturers are blowing. Motorcycle magazines do it, why not the car mags (or websites)? Pretty much every city has at least one dynamometer rig in it, and I think it's less than $100 a pull. Even with then new SAE rules, there is still quite a bit of wiggle room. A chassis dyno cuts through the crap quite nicely!

[hondasalesguy]

The current Altima claims 175 HP and yet is no faster than the 160 HP Accord.

The claimed 160 HP Mazda 6 is slower than the 160 HP Accord.

So I think some of these guys do have optimistic HP readings. Honda often has HP numbers lower than some of their competition and yet in real world acceleration tests we do better than the HP numbers would suggest. Bette to underpromise and overdeliver IMO...

[safristi]

And gearing,weight,(rear axle on RWD's etc) has nuffinnta do wif it...!!!!!

(Message edited by safristi on August 30, 2005)

[davidm]

And that silly little number we refer to as torque ...

[Smainville]

HSG, the 03-04 Edmunds V6 comparo reports the Altima faster than the Accord, not by much but faster Maybe there's another comparo that says otherwise.

(Message edited by smainville on August 30, 2005)

[hondasalesguy]

i was comparing the 4 cylinder models...

you are all correct though, that customers look at HP and not much moore although there are other factors that affect performance. For whatever reason HP is the glamour stat, torque is often overlooked...

[hondasalesguy]

They are a little less torquey than the other Japanese, or at least they once were. Newer engines such as the K Series 2.4L in the Accord/CR-V/Element are more balanced in HP and torque numbers. The upcoming 1.8 in the Civic will be 140 HP and around 127 ft./lbs.

[captain_ron]

I've driven some pretty bad overstated Honda cars. 200hp Prelude that runs mid 16's.  I've driven 150hp faster than the 2001 Prelude.  Honda has "pumped" the numbers many times.  The 2006 TSX 200hp+ is a lot slower than the 190hp Camary.  

I know it is 4cyl vs V6, but still the Camary is faster by half a second to 60, and is more than 10hp down on the TSX (slightly smaller car as well).

[captain_ron]

I really don't know why people would be concerned with HP when buying a Honda.  You are buying an appliance, not a race car.  I own an EL, and it is a fuel efficient, reliable, extremely boring car to drive.  Who would buy Mazda3s if Civics were fun?  Civic = basic, boring transportation.  

Basic + Boring + Relaible + Fuel Efficient = Awesome Sales!  

Not everyone is a car freak.

[hondasalesguy]

spell it with me Captain Ron...

C   A   M   R  Y

only one "A"

the Prelude was 200 HP but only 156 ft./lbs. torque so it wasn't a super fast car from a dead stop. Problem wasn't overstated HP it was a smaller displacement that needed high revs to put its power to the pavement.

[si]

I've driven some pretty bad overstated Honda cars. 200hp Prelude that runs mid 16's. I've driven 150hp faster than the 2001 Prelude. Honda has "pumped" the numbers many times. The 2006 TSX 200hp+ is a lot slower than the 190hp Camary.  

I know it is 4cyl vs V6, but still the Camary is faster by half a second to 60, and is more than 10hp down on the TSX (slightly smaller car as well).

You cannot evaluate hp numbers from a car's acceleration times.  Gear ratios, car mass, torque, unsprung weight, tire grip - will all fudge your numbers.