Author Topic: Timing chain cover gasket/oil pan gasket/coolant flush (Read 2679 times)

bowser · « **on:** August 02, 2005, 02:49:02 pm »

Got such a fast reply with my previous post (thanks Barrie1) thought I would post another.

96 olds ciera 3.1L 230,000km is leaking coolant from timing chain cover gasket.

2 Questions;

1. In almost all cases is the oil pan gasket replaced when the timing chain cover gasket is repaired? (and if they can repair the timing chain cover gasket without damaging the oil pan gasket - is it just good preventative maintenance to have the oil pan gasket replaced at the same time?) Is the replacement oil pan gasket for this year and engine a one piece design? and if it isn't should I request that a one piece gasket be used?

2. The coolant is also weak so I was going to have them do a coolant flush (whatever that means) - Is coolant actually flushed (with water? or chemicals? with some sort of machine?) or is the coolant just drained from the rad and engine and hoses. I am not sure if I need to look around for a shop that has a particular coolant flushing machine or system or just let the garage that is repairing my gaskets do what they do when you want the coolant changed. Sould I make sure they add a sealant to the coolant (the orange coolant) (GM's pellets or Bars stop leak pellets)?

Is there anything else I should be requesting when they do this work (since they essentially have all the belt driven systems torn off the end of the engine to get at the timing chain cover)?

Thanks

barrie1 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 02, 2005, 10:38:05 pm »

I believe the Gasket is seperate from the timing cover to the oil pan gasket. If its not leaking then I would only replace the timing cover one. There is a machine on the market that does flush the engine and rad and heater core out with chemicals. I usually put a large box of Baking Soda in the rad and drive it for a week before flushing my systems. The Baking Soda will loosen up any and all of the scale and garbage thats in there. After the week is up I flush thru the system with plain water and run the heater on Max hi to get the garbage out of the heater core as well. If this hasen't been done for a while I would suggest changing out the thermostat at this time as well. I also use Distilled water mixed 50/50 with the anti-freeze as it will stay cleaner longer then conventional water out of the tap.

articsteve · « **Reply #2 on:** August 03, 2005, 08:41:34 am »

Is there anything else I should be requesting when they do this work (since they essentially have all the belt driven systems torn off the end of the engine to get at the timing chain cover)?

water pump and a new serp belt and possibly a new timing chain tensioner

bowser · « **Reply #3 on:** August 03, 2005, 10:48:39 am »

I believe the oil pan gasket sealing surface at the front of the '96 3.1L engine is against the bottom of the timing chain cover and thus is highly unlikely they will be able to drop the oil pan without damaging the integrity of the gasket in order to fix the leak in the timing chain cover gasket.

I dont think the 3.1 has a timing chain tensioner?

The garage I took it to this morning to price some of the work out said they have a coolant flush machine. Is it ok to use such a machine on such an old engine. Do you think the machine may overclean the coolant system (ie. is it likely it will open up small leaks that are currently sealed with crap/dirt buildup in the cooling system?)

Is it common practice to add some GM coolant pellets (Bars stop leak pellets) when they refill the coolant system?

Thanks for the help

mrthompson · « **Reply #4 on:** August 03, 2005, 10:55:53 am »

My father had the cooling system flushed on his 1992 Dodge Shadow, with 200,000 kms. After a new headgasket and radiator, his car would still run hot. Apparently the heater core was plugged, and the cooling system flush cured this. The car runs as cool as a cucumber now.

barrie1 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 03, 2005, 12:40:06 pm »

I would think that the machine will not hurt your engine at all as the chemicals are all removed in the flushing process. Many of the new Chrysler products come with a bottle of the pellets in the rad from the factory just in case there is a problem down the road with the cooling system. We used to have a Company in London who shipped Jeep products in pieces in crates to the middle east and everyone of them had a bottle of this product in the crate. Possibly its normal for some but not neccasarily all of them. Each makers specs will differ on the needs. I don't generally put the pellets in unless I have a problem with a small leak and have a 3.1 engined car here at home that we use part time now. It has never had the pellets in it yet and its a 1996.

articsteve · « **Reply #6 on:** August 04, 2005, 02:17:12 am »

I dont think the 3.1 has a timing chain tensioner?

It might not be called that, but whatever tensions the chain should be replaced if it is 30 or 40 bucks at your mileage. At your mileage I'd be putting in a chain kit. I lost the tensioner in a 3.8 Buick (main sprocket).

Do you think the machine may overclean the coolant system

No

Is it common practice to add some GM coolant pellets (Bars stop leak pellets) when they refill the coolant system?

Wait until you have a rad leak. Your getting this very expensive repair done and if leaks and you have put Bars Leak in at the same time it may cause conflicts with whomever did the repair.

Here is a link: I think you may have this problem:

http://www.jasperengines.com/pdf/GM_3.1_3.4_TB.pdf

bowser · « **Reply #7 on:** August 04, 2005, 11:30:29 am »

Thanks Articsteve

I think it has a timing chain damper (whatever that is)? would this tension the chain?
(for a picture of the timing chain/sprokets/damper look at this link near the bottom of the page - http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1 4/79/7e/0900823d8014797e.jsp)

What is a "chain kit"?

Thanks for the link - I had the intake manifold gasket replaced already (at 156,000km)

I believe my engine is the 3.1 VIN M

barrie1 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2005, 03:35:19 pm »

A chain kit will consist of a new chain and gears. They generally cost around $40. to $60. for the kit. I agree with Steve as the milage you have on the old set will have stretched the chain a bit by now for sure. I use the Cloyes brand of chains myself as they are a very good product. I buy them from a race shop as they seem to have decent prices on them.

bowser · « **Reply #9 on:** August 04, 2005, 05:11:48 pm »

I have been told that by replacing the chain and sprokets may not be a good idea on such an old car with high milage.

They said that the new chain/sproket set will tighten the system up and induce stresses on other components that havent been there since the car was new.

To me it makes a bit of common sense.

barrie1 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 04, 2005, 09:06:57 pm »

My view is the opposite to that as the new timing chain and gears would put this engine back into spec and make it run where it is supposed to much easier. These chains stretch over the years and miles of wear and to me are worth changing out when you are in there already. I would change the water pump as well while you have it off also. Saves going back in again later if you have to.

bowser · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:07:22 am »

When they have the oil pan off is there anything I should have them look at/change/etc?

bowser · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:20:33 am »

Barrie1 - from your posts you seem to also be from London, Ontario or at least familiar with London.

Up until the last year I have almost used dealers exclusively for repairs (I know kinda dumb).

Who would you recommend in the london area for car repairs? (you can email me if you cant post your recomendations) (to fix for example the stuff we have been talking about - timing cover/chain/sprokets/oilpan/mufflers/thermostats/coolant flushes/ oil changes/ water pumps/ and any other automotive repair).

Also, do you know of anyone that does autobody painting in there spare time (i.e cheap and not requiring entire 1/4 panels to be redone with colour blending into the doors) - (I am not going to pay shop rates to have my car professionally painted. Such an item is very low on the priority list)- There is some rust around my wheel wells and perfect colour matching is not important.

maritime_storm · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2005, 09:33:44 am »

I second what Barrie has told you, when we perform this repair we always recommend replacing the chain & the water pump if the mileage is over
100,000kms as like Barrie said the OEM chain will stretch considerably due to it's design{quiet chain as opposed to double roller} causing the crankshaft to advance slightly on the camshaft. The water pump is located inside the cover, and tends to fail around 150K, costing 3/4 of the expense of fixing this gasket, whereas replacing while it's already out is a negliable expense to do it at the same time. A stitch in time......

barrie1 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2005, 10:45:04 am »

Bowser Yes I live in London and will be glad to assist you in finding a good garage to have your work done by. I only use Garages that own the property as they seem to always do the best work. You will have e-mail shortly.

meathead · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2005, 01:33:00 pm »

I have a Pontiac Le Mans 1992 which I got for FREE from a friend the only problem is that is over heats... So i was thinking the rad needs to be flushed... Am I on the right track?? Someone said it might be the thermostat, but if that fail would it be default closed?

articsteve · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2005, 07:37:00 pm »

So i was thinking the rad needs to be flushed.

The rad could be in bad shape if it is original. Flush out as much of the anti freeze as you can with your hose providing it's not really hard water and pour in a bottle of rad and coolant cleaner and drive around for a week or so and then flush that out and install the proper mix of antifreeze.

To do this will probably require a new lower rad hose because you will be using the lower rad hose were it meets the rad to evacuate the rad and engine coolant. Overall you will probably need to flush the system 3 times minimum with water before you add the final antifreeze mix.

Hopefully your rad has a rad cap or you will be using the upper rad hose to fill primarily. Replace the cap as well.

I would install a new thermostat just to eliminate that element.

barrie1 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 23, 2005, 10:26:12 pm »

I agree with Artic on flushing out the system and changing the stat. My suggestion is almost identical to his only use a box of baking soda in the rad and drive it for a week before you flush it out. Its cheaper then the rad flush and does a really great job of breaking up all of the crud. Remember to have your heater on Maximum Heat and high Fan with the engine running when you refill it again. No Airlocks that way.

meathead · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2005, 09:38:36 am »

thanks guys I am going to try it out. Now the only thing is. What if the rad has a leak? Should I just buy a rebuilt one or fix it?

barrie1 · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2005, 03:11:54 pm »

I have always found that if you have a leak in the rad that recoring the one you have is generally the cheapest way to go. They reuse the end tanks off of your existing rad and just put in a new core. If a rad shop boils out the old rad then they will know for sure if its repairable or not. Sometimes they can just repair the small leak but it depends on the overall condition of the entire core.