Topic: Tiptronic

[mofomikes]

ok, not alot of information about tiptronic transmissions out there so im asking here.

i was told that mazdas sportronic transmission would automatically shift gears for you at a certain rpm even if your in manual mode.  i was also told that acuras (or at least the one on the rsx) tiptronic would not. is it possible to redline with tiptronic, or destroy your engine?

any thoughts on tiptronic?

[johngenx]

99.9% of new cars have a rev limiter that keeps you from over-revving under throttle.  Most automatics also have a shift control to keep you from going down to too low a gear.

Manual transmission cars can over-rev the engine on a downshift, and a rev limiter does you no good in that case.

Most "tiptronic" (that's a trade name) trannies have some sort of auto override to shift by a certain rpm to keep you from bouncing along on the rev limiter.  Some rev limiters are there as a precaution only and you're not meant to really use them.  They typically involve an ignition cut-off and or/fuel cut-off and it's not healthy to operate the engine in that fashion.

[HeliDriver]

I don't know how the manumatic on the RSX works, but it will be simple enough for you to find out (once the car's broken in, of course).

Simply floor the throttle until something happens: either the transmission will upshift to the next gear for you, or it will hold that gear and you will run into the rev limiter.

You'll know you've hit the rev limiter when the engine simply won't rev any higher and the car refuses to go any faster. It's not a pleasant sensation (much stumbling, stuttering and general engine unhappiness), but you're not going to damage anything by doing this infrequently.

[Wetson]

Read your manual and if that doesn't answer your question call Acura.  I don't recommend experimenting to find out if there is a rev. limiter on your vehicle.  It can't be good for the motor especially being a new vehicle.

[HeliDriver]

I don't recommend experimenting to find out if there is a rev. limiter on your vehicle.

There's no question that there is a rev limiter on the RSX. The only question is whether the manumatic tranny holds gears, or upshifts automatically at or near redline.

On a Honda, bumping into the rev limiter every now and then really isn't a big deal. It's not something you want to make a habit of, but it is something that's going to happen on occaision with an engine that makes its power way up high.  

BTW, the rev limiter doesn't cut in until 8,300 rpms on the SiR. Don't ask me how I know this.  

[mp3butt]

Actually the manumatic on Mazdas' are pretty good in giving you freedom to rev the engine. Of course there's a rev limiter but it's a very tolerant one. It stays on the gear unless you hit the extreme. My mom's Protege ES has it and it is pretty fun to use.

The "Tiptronic" on my Jetta is another story. It tends to upshift/downshift a bit faster but it simply babies you too much. Let say you are on fifth and you try to step on the gas, the tranny will actually downshift to the third for you.

[mofomikes]

sounds reasonable.
i assume you cant over rev by downshifting with a tiptronic. (sorry for my ignorance- im not a car dood)
what happens if your cruising in 5th then decide to shift down to 2nd fast? im gussing nothing until you hit the gas where it will quickly hit the rev limiter?

[mofomikes]

also.. my understanding is that an auto tranny will lose more whp then a manual tranny.  if so, how much more on average? and where does the loss occur? (during acceleration or all the time?)

[HeliDriver]

i assume you cant over rev by downshifting with a tiptronic. (sorry for my ignorance- im not a car dood)

Although I'm not about to say for certain, I would be flabbergasted if the computer-controlled transmission was set up to allow you to do such a thing. If that were the case, a simple sneeze and a tap of the wrong button, or maybe a misplaced thumb when looking for the horn, could result in complete engine destruction. Not very likely that Honda (or anyone else) would allow such a thing, IMO.

what happens if your cruising in 5th then decide to shift down to 2nd fast? im gussing nothing until you hit the gas where it will quickly hit the rev limiter?

Depends. If you're going slow enough in 5th (say, 2,000 rpms at 90 km/h), then the tranny would shift down to 2nd for you (ending up at, say, 6,800 rpms at 90 km/h).

If you're already doing 180 km/h at 6,000 rpms in 5th, then, no, the transmission won't shift down to 2nd, no matter how many times you push the button. It may, however, shift down to 4th, but only if doing so wouldn't put the revs over the redline (or rev-limiter, depending on what the computer has been programmed to do).

my understanding is that an auto tranny will lose more whp then a manual tranny. if so, how much more on average? and where does the loss occur? (during acceleration or all the time?)

I'm no expert, but I do believe that auto (manumatic or regular) trannies are somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5% less efficient than manual transmissions. Manual trannies have a direct link between the engine & rear wheels, while an automatic has to transfer all of the engine's power through a big bucket of swirling slush (also called a torque converter ).

Compared to a manual tranny, that loss will be there whenever the engine is generating power to spin the car's wheels (i.e. whenever the car is moving).

[mofomikes]

so a manual tranny would get about a +5% boost in power.  but would the smoother/quicker shifting of a tiptronic be a slight advantage? both can be brought to high rpms the same, correct?

or does an auto tranny change gears slow?

[HeliDriver]

Don't hold me to that 5% figure; it was just a guess. I'm sure some engineering-type will be along shortly to provide a more accurate figure.

And yes, a modern automatic tranny probably does shift faster than a regular human rowing a stick, so that would be a plus in the auto column.

Automatics used to accelerate much slower than their manual twins, but a lot of that was simply due to their having one less gear ratio to work with (4-speed auto vs. 5-speed manual, for example).

Now that six, and even seven-speed automatics aren't that unusual, I expect that the differences between the two are less extreme. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head, but I'd be curious to see acceleration times for a six-speed automatic car vs. its otherwise-identical six-speed manual twin. I wouldn't expect the difference to be that huge.

[mofomikes]

i see..
excellent info. thank you

[HeliDriver]

I see that the RSX comes with either a five-speed auto, or a five-speed manual. I'd love to see the acceleration figures for both.

Problem is, rarely does one tester test both versions of the same car. For example, Edmunds might test a manual, while Road & Track might test an automatic. Can't meaningfully compare the two, because of differences in test procedures, drivers, location, etc.

Anybody seen any real-world comparisons like this?

[mofomikes]

i think i made the right decision with my tranny by taking the middle ground.

[powman]

I have a shiftranic gizmo in my Hyundai Tucson.  As a person whose has had several previous cars with manual tranny's, I can tell you that they are really just a gimmick.  Not the same as a true manual transmission.  I rarely use it.

Having said that, I do prefer the shiftronic in the Mazda over the Hyundai for one simple reason.  In my car, to gear down you pull on the "stick" and gear up you push on it.  In the Mazda it is reversed.  The latter makes more sense.  If you are accelerating, you are being pushed back into your seat so it feels more correct to be pulling the shifter towards you.  Similarly, when braking, inertia will make you lean forward so pushing on the shifter makes more sense.

I actually asked the guys at my service department if they could flip my shifter around.  They laughed at me.  I did send this suggestion to Hyundai as well.

Small point anyhow.  Not sure if having this flipped around would make me use it more anyway.

[airbalancer]

I have a Steptronic in the BMW. I also rarely use it, but I do like the sport mode better then the drive mode.
My son has driven both the Mazda and Bimmer and the Bimmer steptronic is much better then Mazda, less lag.
What I would like to try is the SMG tranny on a M3

[mofomikes]

of course its not a true manual tranny but it does allow you to rev higher then a standard auto.  calling it gimmick is somewhat of a stretch isnt it?

[quadzilla]

I haven't tried yet but if I remember right (I actually did read the manual) the Mazda will just bounce off the rev-limiter when in manual mode.  For some reason I’m thinking that first gear will change at the limiter but only first, I’ll have to go and look it up again.  Plus if you are driving along and you put the go-pedal to the floor, if it can without over revving it will shift down one cog but you do have to put in a lot of throttle to make it happen. You can't downshift before its safe (tried this by accident) and the gear indicator will flash repeatedly.  I don’t know if it will just change when you have slowed down enough as I put it back into the correct gear.

It always returns to 1st gear at every stop if you don’t downshift yourself.  You can start in second gear also.

I like that the “+” is pull back and the “-“ is push forward, more logical to me.

The response time from you shifting to the car shifting I find is slow but I got use to it.

I actually do use the manual mode quite often as I find it quite handy and miss driving a real manual.  Plus when going down long hills, its best to save the brakes.

One thing it could use is a sport mode for the auto mode.  Something like what Subie did with the LegacyGT 5-speed auto.  It would give you a more aggressive shifting pattern than the regular mode.

[mofomikes]

i do like how mazdas sportronic has up shifting by pulling on the stick, makes more sense.  but i also found that the sportronic was a bit slow in its shifting.

[wing]

Mofo, no it is a gimmick as if you simply step on the go pedal full throttle it won't shift till redline in an auto anyways.  So essentially the same thing.

I've only driven a couple of these shift-o-matic things and they were awfull including a BMW 320i