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Author Topic: Jeep GC - New model?  (Read 3827 times)
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Mdxtasy
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« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2005, 10:53:52 am »

Not for one second am I saying that excess consumption of natural resources is a good thing and we should all do it.  However, making blanket statements such as "SUV drivers/owners are wasteful and imply that they don't care about the environment" without knowing the full picture is a little judgemental.  Like you said, everybody does their part.  Can you say for certainty that an SUV owner doesn't recycle, live in a energy efficient home, walk or bike for small trips or collect rain water to water plants etc?  You said it yourself, you and others can all be wasteful.  We all are to some degree.  Just because they drive a big SUV doesn't always mean the owner is some oil wasting inconsiderate buffoon who doesn't care about the world.

The newer homes are extremely energy efficient.  Options to upgrade windows and insulation etc so that heat transfer is limited.  Installing a high efficiency furnace and high efficency appliances can keep some facets of overall consumption down to a minimum.  If you think about it, the older homes and older apartment buildings are where a lot of inefficient heating/cooling systems (old leaky windows, poor insulation, inefficient heating systems etc) are found.

(Message edited by mdxtasy on June 01, 2005)
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« Reply #21 on: June 01, 2005, 11:15:15 am »

Have a read folks...

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/default.asp?storyId=10806
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Mdxtasy
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« Reply #22 on: June 01, 2005, 11:22:52 am »

Good story, but that's not the case in North America.  While I'm sure the arguement of size of SUV's not being any bigger than large luxury cars (or even some midsize sedans), we don't get a lot of diesel engine options here.  It's the big Excursions, Escalades, Navigators, Range Rovers, and other large SUV's with big V8's that are really not as fuel efficent as the conventional car.  The smaller SUV's (even some midsize ones) aren't that far off.
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« Reply #23 on: June 01, 2005, 11:35:09 am »

MDX, you do have a point there.

It's just, in this case it seems so obvious as something anyone can do and makes so much sense to me.  

Larger SUVs are (generally):  
A) More expensive to buy
B) More expensive to maintain (4WD drivetrains)
C) Consume more fuel (even owners tend to b*tch about this one)
D) Have a higher center of gravity/more prone to tipping
E) Not as garageable
F) Would probably severely injure occupants of a smaller, lower car if ever in a collision
G) Often used as a commuter car, in which case they're also harder to park and step up into

While I agree some light duty and compact SUVs do make some sense (they're more upright resulting in great packaging, the AWD is great in Winter months, offer excellent visibility, some consume no more fuel - or even less - than many sedans or sports cars) they are usually heavier and all technology being equal, there's little reason why smaller cars wouldn't lead SUVs for environmental consciousness on every level (from materials usage, to space on the highway/parking, to fuel usage, to emissions, etc) costs for such things notwithstanding.

But I do understand and agree with your post. When I lived in FL there were many people who drove large SUVs who appeared to be conscious of the environment by recycling (very few people do down there - even my school didn't!) and such. It just appears at odds to me. Clearly people do their part in different ways. Just wish they did it in more ways I guess.
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Mdxtasy
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« Reply #24 on: June 01, 2005, 11:42:29 am »

In a perfect world, we would all be conscious of the environmental impact we have on Mother Earth.  We don't live in that world.  

Hopefully, we all do a little something to help...perhaps walk or bike the 4KM commute to work.  
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« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2005, 12:04:25 pm »

To Paraphrase..."The ARSEHOLE is always BROWNER in the OTHER YARD!!!"...Nimby pimbies...
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« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2005, 02:41:51 pm »

Shnak, Kudos to Honda for not dropping in the huge engines YET, but the overall weight of the vehicle can still affect fuel efficientcy.

But before you misread my post, I am actually agreeing with you.
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« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2005, 03:19:48 pm »

I hope Honda/Acura will never go with V8 engines... someone has to be leading and show the way to engines that are cleaner and better for the environment.
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« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2005, 08:46:29 pm »

So I AM allowed to throw stones to people driving SUVs "cause they're cool" and "cause I can afford the gas". They're ignorant

No you are not allowed...ur doing the same thing that everybody is doing, and in the name of enviroment, you should drop your diesel non-enviromental vehicle and buy a bike...

ignorant? hummm...there are ppl much more ignorant than they are...
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« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2005, 09:59:08 pm »

SUV-bashing is popular because it’s safe. No one will disagree with you at the party as you pontificate on their evils.  

Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that people act in their self-interest most of the time, and if they want an SUV, they will get one. You can try to guilt them into a Smart car, but it’s as difficult changing a smoker’s behaviour…pretty hard to do. Like cigarettes, SUVs are a legal product and you can talk yourself into an aneurysm trying to save the world from them.  

Really, only when economics make SUVs (or sports cars, or anything else that burns gas for fun) unaffordable, will their popularity change. Soon, the price of gas will skyrocket and us 4-bangers will join the ranks of today’s $100 a tank SUVers.  

Until then, if SUVs keep you up at night, go beetch at your MP to institute higher gas taxes based on displacement or horsepower. Works elsewhere.
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Mdxtasy
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« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2005, 10:05:05 pm »

SUV's will be a declining market once the price to run it increases.  This will hurt the working families who wanted to join the SUV crowd with their Explorer or whatever.  Economics will force these owners out.  The ritzy Range Rovers and MB G-class, Lexus SUV owners won't necessarily be forced out by economics, but by the SUV fad being no longer 'in'.

However, this is just one part of the equation.  The other side of the environment that should be dealt with is the emissions that vehicles produce.  The newer cars (even big gas guzzling SUV's) will produce less emissions than the older cars, trucks, etc.  Often times, these vehicles are no more efficient to run (as an out of tune engine) and will drink fuel and/or motor oil needlessly.  

SUV bashing is safe, but is a small part of the total equation.
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« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2005, 10:11:38 pm »

New York Times
May 21, 2005
A Love Affair With S.U.V.'s Begins to Cool
By DANNY HAKIM

DETROIT, May 20 - To believe the commercials, sport utility vehicles can climb the most indomitable mountain, ford any stream and haul around the kids to boot.

But gas prices are a more unconquerable force of nature. With higher prices at the pump sinking in as something more than a blip on the radar, and with several new passenger car models winning back customers, America's love affair with S.U.V.'s is taking a breather.

For the first time in 14 years, the passenger car is actually taking sales back at the expense of S.U.V.'s and other trucks, according to an analysis of auto sales data. The renewed interest in cars over the first four months of the year, while modest, is a pause in what has been the trend in auto sales for the last decade and a half: the soaring growth of the sport utility vehicle as America's preferred family vehicle.

Sales of medium and large sport utility vehicles - like the Ford Explorer and Chevrolet Suburban - have stalled, and the torrid sales growth of large pickups has cooled.

While much of the slack is being taken up by smaller and less bulky S.U.V.'s known as crossovers, overall sales of S.U.V.'s are down 1.7 percent while passenger car sales are up 3.1 percent, according to Wards Automotive, which tracks auto sales.

"I just bought a Ford pickup truck and I wish I wouldn't have bought the darn thing," said Mark House, 45, who was shopping Friday at a Toyota dealership in the Toledo, Ohio, area with his daughter, Monika, 19, who said she wanted a car so she could keep the cost of fill-ups down.

"If gas prices were cheaper, then I'd look into an S.U.V.," she said. "It's the gas."

Mr. House, who owns and manages rental properties, said of his truck, "It's $60 to fill it up, and I don't even want to drive it anymore."

But John Wodarski, a manager at the dealership who has sold cars for 23 years, said talk about gas prices did not always translate into action.

"People rank it up there as one of their biggest concerns, just like losing weight," he said, "but no one ever does anything about it."

Weakness in big trucks is bad news for General Motors and Ford Motor, because they largely rely on big S.U.V.'s and pickup trucks for profits. Asian automakers like Toyota have had a stronger position in sales of cars and crossover vehicles.

G.M. executives say large S.U.V. sales, which are down 15 percent this year industrywide, are weak not because of gas prices but because G.M.'s models are nearing the end of a product cycle. G.M. will introduce redesigned versions of large S.U.V.'s like the Chevy Suburban and Cadillac Escalade next year. Ford executives, by contrast, have cited gas prices as a major factor in their diminished earnings projections. Phil Martens, Ford's vice president for product creation, said recently that "fuel economy has gone from not being in the top 10," among buyer concerns, "to being in the top 5."

Some analysts see a parade of newer car models as the predominant factor.

"Gas prices are having a much more minor effect than they did in the 80's," said Tom Libby, the senior director of industry analysis at the Power information network, a unit of the research and consulting firm J. D. Power & Associates. In fact, gas prices, adjusted for inflation, are not nearly as high as they were in the early 1980's. Mr. Libby said a wave of new midsize luxury cars from brands like Acura, Lexus, BMW and Infiniti were increasing car sales.

Hot sales of hybrid electric cars, like the Toyota Prius, have also helped, though Toyota's Lexus division and Ford are now also offering hybrid S.U.V.'s. Detroit's recent emphasis on making more credible passenger cars has been a major factor. Two notable cars with strong sales have been Ford's redesigned, Mustang and DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler 300 sedan.

"I never wanted a car before - never," said Tamika Cooks, a science teacher at Bellaire High School in Houston, in an interview Friday as she was signing the paperwork for her Chrysler 300C. "But this car has captured my attention. It speaks to me. It calls my name."

Burly and sleek, the 300C has won diverse appeal and convinced many that Detroit can make compelling cars if it is motivated; the rapper Snoop Dogg drives a black 300C. Ms. Cooks preferred satin jade.

"It's soft, it's feminine, it's classy," she said. "When you see it passing by, you have to stop and look."

For Ms. Cooks, gas prices, which are $2.09 a gallon for regular at a Shell station nearby, were not part of her decision, and she said she came close to buying a Lexus S.U.V. The 300C, equipped with a gas guzzling Hemi engine, is hardly akin to a Toyota Prius.

"Gas prices worry me with any vehicle," she said. "One day they're up, the next day they're slightly down."

Cars now account for 46.3 percent of the nation's vehicle market, up from 45.4 percent in the first four months of 2004, according to Ward's. Before this year, cars had been in decline every year since 1991, when they accounted for 67.4 percent of the market. In 1980, cars made up about four-fifths of sales. The growth of light trucks, a regulatory category that includes minivans, S.U.V.'s and pickup trucks, has had broad effects on the nation's oil consumption. The fuel economy of the average new vehicle sold fell to 20.7 miles a gallon in 2003 models from 22.1 miles a gallon in 1988 models. Regulations permit light trucks to consume significantly more gas than cars; the most recent Congressional effort to tighten the regulatory system was defeated in the Senate this week.

Will the growth of cars be sustained? Not likely. Domestic automakers have laid out production plans focusing on more small S.U.V.'s, and Asian automakers are increasing their focus on the pickup truck market, with Toyota building a new pickup truck plant in San Antonio.

"By the end of the decade, sales will be anywhere from two-thirds to three-fourths light trucks," said Haig Stoddard, the manager of industry analysis at Ward's.

Gas could be an X-factor. When prices went up in March, Yves Nau, a nightclub owner in Houston, traded in his GMC Yukon Denali for a Chrysler 300C sedan.

Between savings at the gas pump, lower car payments and insurance bills, he said he was saving $700 a month.

"I feel like I'm the smart guy," he said. "You save money like that and you can't ignore it."

Jeremy Peters, in Toledo, Ohio, and Wendy Grossman, in Houston, contributed reporting for this article.
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« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2005, 11:46:57 pm »

Thanks for that, B.  

The fuel economy of the average new vehicle sold fell to 20.7 miles a gallon in 2003 models from 22.1 miles a gallon in 1988 models.

This is criminal. With our refinements in engine technology and in the face of an exponential drop in oil production over the next few years, it is inconceivable that the North American fleet is now getting poorer gas mileage than 17 years ago.  

Regulations permit light trucks to consume significantly more gas than cars; the most recent Congressional effort to tighten the regulatory system was defeated in the Senate this week.

Here’s another factor…the government can’t say “no” to big oil and cars makers. Certainly legislating an improvement in fuel efficiency will, like the article points out, hurt the domestics, who are handing on by the skin of their SUVs.

True, MD, that targeting the individual SUVer is only a small part of the equation. It’s a North American wide-scale change that’s required to address resource depletion and emissions.

(Message edited by accordingly on June 01, 2005)
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« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2005, 10:15:47 am »

I was thinking of that yesterday... what about all those big diesel trucks everywhere? Seems to me that they aren't subjected to any emissions laws, and since they're using old diesel engine technology that dates from 20-30 years, they pollute like crazy. Wouldn't it be possible to force those truck companies to respect the environment more when designing those new trucks? There are so many of them everywhere...
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« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2005, 01:02:30 pm »

And here I tho't Mr Felt was DEEP THROAT!!!!!!
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« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2005, 02:25:10 pm »

Cheers Brig, that article sums up the mentality though:

"If gas prices were cheaper, then I'd look into an S.U.V.," she said. "It's the gas."  

Why not look into whether you really need to be driving a 4x4 off-roading truck to the shops and back at 19 years old...
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« Reply #36 on: June 02, 2005, 02:35:44 pm »

Bob the Wimmen are Gargantuan in TEXARSE...don't Ya KNOW!!!!......
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« Reply #37 on: June 02, 2005, 02:43:48 pm »

Well for those that say chrysler went too far with the SRT-8 6.1L hemi that just runs on premium gas. There is also the MB 3.0Lcrd grand cherokee.
From http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/ then click on special reports and go to geneva auto show. Then click on the side bar grand cherokee.
"New 3.0-litre diesel engine debuts for new Jeep® Grand Cherokee in Geneva
New 3.0-litre diesel delivers class-leading torque and towing
First-time availability of 5.7-litre HEMI with Multi-Displacement System in a Jeep® vehicle
All-new five speed automatic transmission with interactive shift control"
"The all-new 3.0-litre V-6 CRD engine is a “next-generation” power unit from the DaimlerChrysler Group producing class-leading levels of torque and towing, with good fuel economy. With Bosch high-pressure fuel injection (2000+ bar), a variable geometry turbocharger and four valves per cylinder, the new engine meets Euro 4 emissions standards without a diesel particulate filter. Maximum power is 160 kW (218 hp DIN) and peak torque is 510 Nm (376 lb.-ft.) from just 1800 rpm.
For the diesel engine, a kick-down switch is now added to the accelerator pedal. This detent, reached before the full travel of the pedal, is intended to reduce transmission kick-downs during normal driving but still allow for full pedal travel when a quicker acceleration is wanted by the driver."

(Message edited by 66coronet on June 02, 2005)
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« Reply #38 on: June 02, 2005, 03:04:06 pm »

For those who complain about interior space. The 2005 is bigger than the previous model Grand cherokee.
Just check out http://daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/ click on special reports in the side bar. Then go to geneva auto show. Then click on grand cherokee on the side bar. Then it will open up under that heading "legendary grand cherokee size, styling, comfort" and click on that.  
That artical will show that it's a bit bigger.
"All-new interior provides next-generation sophistication
Grand Cherokee’s new interior is updated and inviting with a two-tone instrument panel, door trim and new finishes. Seat contours are precise and ergonomic with increased seat track travel. Increased head room, leg room, shoulder room and hip room - especially in the back seats, where hip room is up 209 mm - adds a feeling of even more spaciousness to the interior."
1908 litres (67.4 cu. ft.) of rear cargo volume.

Complementing these amenities is a much quieter interior, thanks to driveline NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) improvements, wind noise reductions and much greater use of noise damping materials within the body structure and engine compartment.


The new Grand Cherokee will start to reach dealer showrooms across Europe from April (petrol models) and from June (diesel models) of 2005.
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« Reply #39 on: June 02, 2005, 03:27:09 pm »

Another nice web sight for the SRT-8
http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/grandcherokee_srt8/index.htm
and general grand cherokee info
http://www.dodgeboy.net/news/grandcherokee/index.htm
http://www.allpar.com/model/jeep/grand-cherokee-review.html
http://www.allpar.com/model/jeep/grand-cherokee-2005.html
1999-2004 grand cherokee info
http://www.allpar.com/model/99gc.html
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