Topic: Be careful when buying used car from big dealership!!!

[alexr]

This story happened during this week (from April 25th to May 1st, 2005).

On AutoTrader I have found a car that I wish to buy as a replacement for my old "iron horse".  

Everything was pretty good for me:  
Chrysler Concorde LXI 2003, 3.5L (255HP), 40K, automatic transmission
Silver exterior, black leather interior, driver & passenger airbags,  
sunroof, power seats, 5 CD changer, Infiniti sound, heated seats & mirrors etc.

The seller of this car was big dealership in Hamilton, ON - "Johnston Chrysler".  

I was confident that dealerships of this size will not make "monkey business" because of their established name and reputation. As well, in case of unfair business they could loose their dealer's license.....  

I called to this dealership and had a chat with manager of Used Car department - Karen Kraguljack. She told me that everything that was announced in ad is true and car is in the perfect condition and just waiting for the next owner.

I drove to Hamilton from Toronto for about an hour. The day was cloudy and I went to dealership around 5PM. In this type of daylight silver metallic paint looks darker then in a shiny day. (important detail in a future!!!)

I checked the car from inside and outside and didn't find any damages or scratches. Manager told me that this car came from auction in perfect conditions with no accidents, not from rental and had only one previous owner.

I took a test drive and noticed that there are no heated seats and mirrors available on this car as it was posted in ad. I asked about this features and they said (after 15 minutes of searching .... professionals!!!) that manager who posted ad on AutoTrader made a mistake. Good point for future negotiation!

Car behaved nice and smooth on the road and I decided to buy it.

As well, they told me that this car still has manufacturer warranty "bumper to bumper" and tons of powertrain warranty. For my old car they offered one half of the market value and I decided to sell it by myself. They reduced price for 900 dollars (because of missing features) and took 100 dollars of security deposit. I left my plate portion for transferring plates from old car to new car and went home to prepare certified check.  

After arriving at home I bought car report from CarFax.com. It said that mileage is fair and no accidents had been reported on this vehicle.

The most interesting part of the story began when I went back next weekend to pick up the car.  

I went with one friend of mine who is a car dealer. I showed certified check to manager but didn't pass it to her.

We decided to take a one more look at the car. What a surprise!!! In a normal daylight we noticed that car is painted - front left fender and rear back fender. Silver metallic paint looks little bit different under sunlight. When we took closer look we found traces of silver metallic paint on a rubber stripe around the windshield.  

From this moment I didn't want to buy this car any more and you should see how the "hospitality" of the manager was changed!!! They told us: "Where are you "smarty pants" came from? Go away! We will not return your deposit! We will not transfer back your plates to the old vehicle! Bye!"  

They were very disappointed that they could not sell this painted bucket. Probably they counted on people who can't recognize painted car form unpainted.

I was very disappointed too because they lied to me and they knew from the very beginning that car is painted. That is how they make business. And I, as a customer, hate this.

I will post this story on all web forums in Toronto and Hamilton to warn people about unfair business they tried to make. I will complain about this case in Used Car Dealer Association.  

Good luck to everyone in searching of new "iron horse"

[The Fuzz]

That's why you get your knowledgable friend to look at the vehicle BEFORE you hand over any dough or paperwork.  

Tough lesson to learn.

[Craig]

So the problem was that it was painted, or painted badly?  From the paint on the trim, I assume it was painted badly.  Either way, not good that they don't know, or don't report, the history of the vehicles they sell.

Is it common for new car dealers to purchase cars from auction for resale?  I thought they got their inventory through trade-ins.  Guess I was wrong.

I have my own Johtston Chrysler story, but about their service department.  The stopping power of my YJ was severly diminished.  Shouldn't have needed pads so soon, so I took it to Johnston.  That was my report to the service advisor - "reduced stopping power".  They reported the pads had plenty of wear left and that everything was OK.  I exited the dealership on the Upper James side.  It may be fixed now, but it used to be a moderate slope down to the street.  Rolling at parking lot speed, I tried to stop, and ended up in the middle of traffic.  Nearly got t-boned.

I stormed back into the service dept.  Turns out, the pad was cracked, so there was little surface area of the brake pad in use.  I never forgave those bastards for that.  Only takes one life-before-your-eyes experience to lose faith in a service department.

[articsteve]

If you can prove that the dealer lied to you or intentionally misrepresented the facts about the car then go here:

www.omvic.on.ca

Hopefully this dealer has done this before.  OMVIC regards misreprentation as their number one bad deed not to be done by dealers.  Lemons and manufacturing problems/issues are not in same category.

However much of the blame rests with you.

1.  Buying one of the worst used cars on the market.  Try using google before you buy a car.

2. Auction cars are orphan cars and are surplus.  Generally they are bottom of the barrel.

[Sterling]

"Auction cars are orphan cars and are surplus. Generally they are bottom of the barrel."

Wrong. The majority of used cars on a franchised dealer's lot will have been purchased from an auction.

[articsteve]

Sorry Sterling, not one of the dealers I have dealt with buy auction cars for resale.

I suppose it depends on what kind of franchise you are talking about.  Desperate domestic dealers and perhaps the Koreans, but Bimmer NO, Mercedes NO.  They may trade amongst themselves but if they are a sucessful dealership they are not relying on used cars to prop up the business.

In my area Honda and Toyota dealers don't buy at auctions, they only sell as they have too many trades coming in for they used car section.

Auction cars are the bottom of the barrel.

Super condition cars don't make it past the dealership level (employees or family).

Good cars go to the used lot or to wholesalers/resellers directly if that particular car doesn't jive with the local market.

Overflow vehicles and average crapola goes to auctions.  Auctions cut into profit and no sales manager wants to be travelling to and hanging around an auction.

[hondasalesguy]

I have to split the middle between ol' Arctic Steve (he who deems himself the knower of all things automotive) and Sterling. SOME of a new car dealers used vehicles are from auction, but that can vary greatly from dealer to dealer. At my Honda store I estimate less than 10% of our used inventory came from auction. Most of the rest are trade ins so we generally know the background. But then our used car sales department isn't exactly lighting the world on fire, if it was a lot busier they would be more likely to have to supplement their supply of used inventory with auction vehicles. A car bought at auction is not NECESSARILY a problem car, some dealers can't be bothered reconditioning every trade they take in, so the off brands, oddballs and less desirable ones go to auction. Maybe what is unappealing to a used car manager at an import store (say a Grand Am) may be a very saleable vehicle for a Pontiac or Chev lot. So generalizing about auction cars doesn't definitively prove anything. In every case a potential buyer should look at the car inside and out, get a vehicle history and attempt to talk to a previous owner if the dealer asks permission for that previous owner to be contacted. There is no excuse for misrepresenting a used car as to accidents, repaints, or its origin. But the used car market is definitely buyer beware no matter if you are talking from a dealer or privately. If people think dealers do shady things to their used cars, I have one word for you.. "Curbsider"  

Now Barrie would probably disagree, he thinks people should never buy from dealers (of course then where would they buy brand new cars..)

As far as super cars never making it past friends or family, how many family members and salespeoples buddies do you think are buying cars every day of the week? That's not realistic. Better used cars generally stay put and are resold where they came in on trade, but there will always be exceptions, just don't expect a perfect used car if it came through Milton on a Tuesday. But then the price should reflect that. An educated customer should know within $500 what any used car in any condition should be selling for...there are too many resources out there for people to get screwed on price.

But then I only sell new cars and that takes those variables right out of the equation..

[articsteve]

Arctic Steve (he who deems himself the knower of all things automotive)

Hey dude, its ARTIC steve.

As far as super cars never making it past friends or family, how many family members and salespeoples buddies do you think are buying cars every day of the week?  

Well super cars don't come thru the dealer every day let alone every month.  They are rare, but when they do they disappear quickly.

So generalizing about auction cars doesn't definitively prove anything. In every case a potential buyer should look at the car inside and out, get a vehicle history and attempt to talk to a previous owner if the dealer asks permission for that previous owner to be contacted.

 What are you talking about.  If an auction car is resold out of dealer how in the world is the buyer going to contact the original owner?

[Sterling]

I guess Steve is talking about the public auctions where anyone can pick up a nice used taxi cab with 400,000 kms. Plenty of dealers buy their stock at dealer-only auctions that are sponsored by the manufacturers. This is where ex-rentals, lease returns, and other manufacturer sourced cars come from. Most of these cars are less than 2 years old with anywhere from 0-30,000 km. There are plenty of nice cars there that the public doesn't see until they hit a dealer's lot.

Oh, and any prospective dealership owners may want to think twice before taking business advice from steve. Far from "propping up" a business, the used car market is virtually the only way for a dealership to make money through a sales department.

[barrie1]

Excuse me Mr Honda, where have I ever stated that Folks shouldn't buy from a dealer. People have no choice then to buy a new car from a dealer. A used car is a different matter as thats where most of the BS in the trade occurs. I have repo'd enough brand new cars in my time to know that some of the very best vehicles do go to a auction. It's up to the lender to decide where the baliff sends them or they pay him to sell them for them. All GM's for example go to Toronto to the auction and so do a no. of other manufacturers brands. Some split the age of the vehicle and have it sold here or in Toronto depending on the value of it.

[Craig]

Actually, Barrie, I kinda addumed HSG meant ArticSteve, but used your name in error.  Might just be the first, and last, time you two are mistaken for one-another.

[Mdxtasy]

A painted fender is the issue?  Could have been to repair rock chips on the front fender or minor scuffs or door dings.  Probably was a shotty job...and the old saying of buyer beware means you have to look for these things.  Did you specifically ask them if the car had been repainted?  

Paint on the rubber portion could have and should have been noticed on an overcast day (unless a total solar eclipse was going on at the time and it was pitch black).  To me, that's more an oversight on your part.

I'm sure they would have been a little pissed, you entered into a contract with verbal agreement to the terms and conditions of this transaction.  You even put down a deposit and asked them to transfer the plates.  They probably set the wheels in motion to get all the i's dotted and the t's crossed....just in time to see you back out at the very last second.

[hondasalesguy]

apologies to Barrie I did mean to refer to Artic Steve. I gotta get this straight, Barie is the GM loyalist, Artic thinks people should avoid dealers if humanly possible. Seems Artic hasn't  ever had many POSITIVE experiences with car dealers.

[stodge]

"Good cars go to the used lot"

Not at some of the places I was looking at! One Jetta (Bytek) had a huge rust hole in the side, one Aero (Hyundai in Bells Corners) had a huge chunk of the side of the seat missing and the list goes on. One dealership (Belisle) even advertised an Aero as a 3.4L (I think that's the larger size) when it was obviously a 2 point something (just look at the engine dammit, it tells you on there!).

My discovery was that the best cars get sold instantly and the rest languish on the used car lot at the dealership.

I agree it's difficult when seeing a car when it's a bright sunny compared to when it's overcast and/or raining. The same thing happened to me. I thought I'd found a bargain in perfect condition when viewed in the evening rain, only to return the next day and find the paintwork to be in rough shape and the beginnings of rust appearing around most windows.

Mdxtasy : I think by law you can still get your refund back within what, 24 hours?

[hondasalesguy]

Also agreed that a buyer can't ALWAYS check background on a car, and obviously can't if it came from auction. But he can purchase the package showing him previous owners if it was an in province car (here in Ontario)

[articsteve]

I guess Steve is talking about the public auctions where anyone can pick up a nice used taxi cab with 400,000 kms. Plenty of dealers buy their stock at dealer-only auctions that are sponsored by the manufacturers. This is where ex-rentals, lease returns, and other manufacturer sourced cars come from

No, dealer only I was referring to. Yes, some of new car dealers buy their stock at industry auctions, but not BMW, MB, Lexus, Volvo, Porsche dealers and so forth.  They trade between themselves before they waste manpower and money at auctions.  It really depends on what brand a dealership it is.  Brands that are selling lots of new cars don't need to go to the auctions to buy used cars, it's more likely they need them to unload surplus which are always the less desirable units.  In addition to this large leasing companies usually deal directly with dealerships to unload vehicles before they resort to auction.

Large used car dealers are what drives the auctions.  The dealer will drive a van with 8 retired fellows down every week and buy 8 cars.  Usually, these dealers stick with certain brands and usually they are off lease with powertrain warranties.  Back at the dealer they will usually have a couple of full time mechanics that know certain brands well.  That is what drives the auctions.  To buy from these places is stupid, but they account for most of the used car sales.

So I repeat, on average auction cars are less likely to be better used cars than dealer holdbacks.

[articsteve]

I did mean to refer to Artic Steve

Yes, I figured that.  Was waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Barrie says "I have repo'd enough brand new cars in my time to know that some of the very best vehicles do go to a auction."

My experience is that people that can't make their payments don't have the money to service their car and therefore do not, so repos from auctions are a buyer beware purchase to say the least.

Seems Artic hasn't ever had many POSITIVE experiences with car dealers.

I'm in the business and my kid is really into it now. What can I say other than the truth here;  that the buying and selling of cars is a ruthless business despite the happy faces and pleasant chit chat.

But he can purchase the package showing him previous owners if it was an in province car (here in Ontario)

All it shows is a name and a region in place of the person's address.  Example:  John Smith from Waterloo.  Ok, go to 411 and get John Smith of Waterloo on the phone.

All the package does is give you an overview of how many owners the car has had and if it has been previously registered outside the province.  It provides no info about condition and service records.  However, it will tell you if it was leased for example and the name the leasing company, but they wouldn't divulge owners' names.

The primary purpose of the package is to:

1.  Advise people about possible liens which is really worth the $20.00

2.  Allow the government to gain a tighter death grip on sales tax by imposing their values for tax purposes.

[articsteve]

I think by law you can still get your refund back within what, 24 hours?

No. If there is no misrepresentation and the contract is signed with all the contract elements present then there is no refund of the deposit right away.  The dealer can get his liquidated damages out of the deposit and then return the rest which usually is nothing.

I think in this case if the poster presses his case with OMVIC then the dealer will return his money.  Seems to me the poster has a case of dealer bad faith and ethics.

It is interesting that the poster thought that since this was such a big dealer in Hamilton that it would tend to be more reputable.  Just another illusion of the car business.

[stodge]

Oops, thanks for clarifying that ArticSteve!

[hondasalesguy]

the UVIP also lets you know if it has gone through 1,2, or several owners. A multi owner car is usually less desirable, as is a former daily rental.

Ruthless? Maybe you make it that way. In my day to day experience I don't find it that way at all. Some customers are lying pricks, obviously some dealers and/or salespeople are also less than 100% ethical. Treat people the way you would want to be treated and see what happens... Sometimes you get jerked around (but from where I sit it happens 10 times as often by the customer as by one of us). Most of the time people are decent and if you are fair with them and don't misrepresent your product things generally go reasonably smoothly. Now I don't sell cars in the GTA, I'm sure the higher concentration of dealerships and cut throat competition must make doing my job much more difficult there. But even people who negotiate in a confrontational manner usually warm up and are all smiles once the deal is closed.