Author Topic: Aluminum alloy Wheels and Road Salt  (Read 6466 times)

Offline crow

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Aluminum alloy Wheels and Road Salt
« on: December 01, 2004, 04:15:55 pm »
Time to climb on my soap box.

I've seen several posters comment that they run alloy wheels (presumably aluminum; magnesium are pretty rare and really pricey) in the winter with no side effects.  You may not see much damage in the first few years, but if you want to see what happens, just keep doing it.  You'll see.

I have a 1995 Ford Escort with the stock Ford aluminum alloy rims, not exactly top quality but functional.  I run all-season tires year-round on that car using the stock rims.  After 9 winters the rims are more-or-less destroyed.

You can summarize the effects as follows:
First 4 winters:  no obvious side effects.
After winter #5:  started to observe pitting along the edge of the bead and some bubbling of the shiny coating.  I probably would have developed air leaks but I replaced the tires at this stage so the rims were all buffed out.
After winter #6:  More of the same.  No air leaks yet.
After winter #7:  Pitting along bead is very obvious; material starts to flake off edges of tire rim.  Start getting slow air leaks in two tires (1-3 psi per week).
After winter #8:  Damage to rim continues.  Air leaks increase (5-7 psi per week) and occur in all tires.  Start repairing leaks.
After winter #9: Rims look awful.  Shiny finish material is flaking off all over.  Air leaks start occurring again, as much as 5-6 psi per day.  Leak repairs performed several times over the last 12 months as tires develop leaks.

It doesn't matter whether I have them repaired at Crappy Tire or a quality tire shop, the problems just go away for awhile and eventually come back.  

To date, I've spent, by best estimate, over $300 re-installing, rim-buffing, and otherwise recovering from damage to the rims, and that only solves the functional problems.  Cosmetically, the rims are a mess.  Some rims are worse than others.  One rim/tire combo has been "repaired" four times in two years for air leaks.  One rim has only been done once and it's still holding, unless you count the fact that it took them three tries in three days to get it to stop leaking in the first place.

If you use one set of rims for both summer and winter duty with dedicated summer and winter tires, you will at least benefit from the repeated reinstalling, assuming of course the rim survives the repeated remove/install cycles.  However, you can expect to see cosmetic damage starting to show after 4-5 years and rim-buffing will probably be needed from then on.

All this depends, of course, on how much salt your wheels are subjected to.  The chemical warfare geniuses who do the roads here in Ottawa prefer the salt approach rather than plowing it much of the time.

Chemically speaking, the damage is done at "warmer" (above freezing) temperatures.  Below freezing, the salt is non-reactive and may coat things but won't damage them.  The killer is those thaw times when the temperature is near freezing and there's plenty of winter salt around.  (I read once that the worst damage is done as the temperature approaches 10 degrees celsius, but I cannot confirm the accuracy of that statement.)

I use winter steel/summer alloy on my newer vehicles (Windstar and Mazda 3).  Having never seen salt, the rims on my Windstar still look fine, but they're just getting to the age now where wear would show so I'll have a better idea going forward.  The 3 is of course way too new to judge, but I have my 16" steels with Toyo Garits for winter duty there.

Overall, I'd have to say I'm a convert to winter tires on dedicated, steel rims.  The steel may be heavier than the alloys and the handling may not be as confident, but you shouldn't be pushing things that hard in the winter months.  Save it for warm weather when you can put the good hardware on and the weather is conducive to such shenanigans.

Your mileage may vary.  I post this as evidence from my own circumstances.  Read or ridicule at your discretion.




Offline ovr50

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Aluminum alloy Wheels and Road Salt
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2004, 05:22:12 pm »
Welcome to the Forum, Crow, and good first post.  

I wrote a longer reply to yours above, generally agreeing with your comments. As I went post it, it was "lost" and I'm not re-doing it. Anyway, good post.
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Offline Shnak

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Aluminum alloy Wheels and Road Salt
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2004, 05:25:51 pm »
Is there a difference in quality of alloys from carmaker to carmaker? I would think that alloys from a Mercedes or BMW would last longer than alloys from an Escort, no?

Offline mis3

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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2004, 06:24:59 pm »
It's pretty good for a set of wheels to last 9 years in continuous use.

In my opinion, it has a lot to do with maintenance.  First of all, regular wash in winter is very important.  Do not let the salt to stay on your wheels for too long.  It will help also if you wax the wheels once in a while to protect the alloy.  

Offline ericthejet

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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2004, 08:11:42 pm »
Salt only does it's dirty deed in milder temps. so only wash it off when it's mild out.  In colder weather it does not really eat the car as much.  Waxing the wheels is also a good idea as mentioned.
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Offline morkys

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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2004, 09:53:53 pm »
I'm torn as to what to do with my car. Its not a sports car by any stretch. Its a 91 Cutlass Cruiser station wagon. I don't necessarily like using dedicated winter tires, but I'll re-consider. I wish they had a tire that was inbetween the performance of the best "all season" tire and the better ice/winter tires.

It can't be impossible to design a good steel wheel that isn't too heavy, I wish they'd do it.

What should I do with my car? It has 14" steel wheels and totally dead as a door-nail tires. Should I use winter rubber now and switch to a nice set of 15" alloy's in the spring? Say around April? Trouble is this winter may be an El Nino winter with warmer weather and less ice/snow. No garantee I guess. I still haven't decided which tires I'd get either way.

I saw some Canadian Tire Nordic Winter Trac tires selling used and I passed on them for now. I'm going to see if they are still for sale just in case I change my mind. The Winter Trac tires look really slow and noisy vs the ice trac tires. I guess you can't have it all.

thanx in advance for any input :-)

P.S. I've even thought about going with 15" steel wheels and all season tires. I've driven non-winter all season tires all my life and I just drive slower and drive for the conditions.

Offline blackdiamond

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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2004, 12:53:41 pm »
Hi Morkys,

I don't know which part of the country you live in, but to me a milder winter means that we might not go down to -40 and stay around -15 or -20. At those temperature, all seasons are still like hockey pucks: hard frozen rubber and have as much grip as hockey pucks as well. Regarding snow, I have heard both side of the story: El Nino hence drier winter or El Nino hence wetter winter. Either way, I wouldn't take any chances: it is better to be safe than sorry.

Offline morkys

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« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2004, 05:58:22 pm »
I'm in the burbs of Toronto. Last few years have been pretty snow filled and very cold. In the 90's, it kinda varied. Some years it was brutally cold and no snow, while other years it was a little milder and snowier. Last few years we've had alot of snow compared to the late 80's early 90's I think.

I did some research. Nobody can predict the weather exactly, but its interesting non-the-less. I've actually heard that the El Nino occuring in the Pacific Ocean is mild, and therefore, the El Nino Effect will be different. The normal warmer winters associated with El Nino are the result of moderate to strong El Nino. It may be changing to moderate. I guess its a crap shoot. I'll probably check out the tires anyways. Its so inexpensive that even if I'm not thrilled with them, I'll still keep them for snowy weather. The US has good data about the predicted affects of the El Nino on the US, but I haven't found much for Canada. Needless to say, they are predicting a weak El Nino, so odds are high that we won't have a mild winter, in fact, it is more likely to be typical, or a bit colder than average. I think that is likely, but it sounds like it may not be an extremely cold winter, and that would be nice. I guess only time will tell :-)

Anyone else here have any personal experience with Can tire Nordic Winter Trac tires?

(Message edited by morkys on December 02, 2004)

Offline crow

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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2004, 04:44:36 pm »
Morkys,

While this is off the original topic, I have used Nordic WinterTrac's for four winters - the current winter is going to be the fifth - on my Windstar.  The tires have about 15,000 km on them and are sitting at about 9/32 tread remaining (they're likely to wear out from age before they wear out from use.)

The tires are a quite a bit noisier and somewhat floppy relative to the stock Michelin Symmetry "all season" (summer) tires, but part of the "flop" is the wheel downsize from 16" to 15" and the corresponding aspect ratio changes.  I tend to drive my minivan like you'd handle a barge so the reduction in handling is something I don't typically notice.

The tires perform suitably well in winter.  The difference with the stock all-season tires is night and day.  The Wintertrac's perform well in snow, slush, and rain, and perform adequately on ice.  (The stock Michelin's are a disaster on anything when the temperature drops below freezing.)  

By comparison, I use Toyo Garit HT's on my Mazda 3.  The Garits and Wintertracs are comparably noisy and the Wintertrac seems to be as capable as the Garit in winter conditions, although I have yet to get the Garits in truly deep snow yet.  The Garit performs better at speed, but it's also a 55 series tire vs. the 70 on my van.

I use all-season's on my Escort.  It's a night-and-day difference in winter capability between the Escort and either of my other vehicles equipped with snows.  The Escort has been sitting home a lot lately.

If you don't drive like a maniac in winter, I have no problem recommending these tires as an inexpensive winter driving solution.  They are pretty hard to beat on a "bang for the buck" basis.  If you are a "performance oriented" driver, the Wintertrac's are probably not your best bet; better to stick with an H-rated or better tire.


Offline oversteer

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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2004, 02:26:06 pm »

quote:

I wish they had a tire that was inbetween the performance of the best "all season" tire and the better ice/winter tires.

The Winter Trac tires look really slow and noisy vs the ice trac tires. I guess you can't have it all.  

I've driven non-winter all season tires all my life and I just drive slower and drive for the conditions.




1. Nokian WR fits the bill - I know somebody who ran them year-round and got over 80K from them.  Having driven on them through a snowstorm in a FWD car with no traction control I can tell you they are outstanding in winter conditions.

2. WinterTrac = BFG Winter Slalom which gets excellent reviews on many sites.

3. Too many people do that and that's a big part of the reason why traffic is at a standstill.  There is a difference between driving for the conditions and being equipped for the conditions.  Nothing personal, just an opinion.

Offline morkys

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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 09:19:53 pm »
Crow,

Thanx for the feedback guys. I'm installing 185/75 14's on my wheels. Should be fine. I'm not racing. I just prefer 70/65/60 ratio for that safer feeling in emergency situations.

I'd prefer the Nordic Ice Trac because the angled sipes look like they're quieter and less of a strain on gas mileage.  For now the 185/75 14's Nordic Winter Trac tires should be ok, and they're being mounted on my 14" steel rims. I'm running 205/70 14 all season's right now because I found cheap alloy wheels with tires. The wheels/tires are BIG on the car, but they're worlds better than the dead 185/75 14's that were on there. If I could, I'd run 195/65 15's on steel rims for winter and run all season tires on 195/65 15 alloys or 205/60 15 or 205 55 16 for summer.

(Message edited by morkys on December 09, 2004)