Forester vs. X-Trail

[awebber]

I'm looking to replace my ancient (1991, bought new) Ford Explorer and have pretty much narrowed down the choice to Forester (XS or XT) vs X-Trail (vs Vue but a distant third).

I see posts here asking for dealer invoice prices on various models, I also see sites where you can pay for these things (specifically www.carcostcanada.com).  Is there a difference in the accuracy?  (Meaning no disrespect to Eax, of course).

What about the ccc service "Rapid Response Dealer Quoting System", is it worth using?  I assume when they say "free" they mean if you've paid $30 for two reports.  I guess once I've paid the $30 there no risk in the RR system.  What about the "Premium Pricing Service"?

Thanks!
=andrew

[Mdxtasy]

If I had to choose between the 3....Forester XT.  Nothing better than a turbo wagon to surprise a few sporty cars.  As for EAX....I'd say he's as good as gold.

[awebber]

Thanks for your comment.

What about between the Forester XS and the mid-level X-Trail (removing the turbo from the equation).  I hadn't thought about the X-Trail at all, partly because their specs say it has no legroom (40.9" to the Forester's 43.6" to my Explorer's 42.4").  But I wandered over to the Lynx Stadium car sale last week and sat in an X-Trail.

It was surprisingly roomy and since I didn't remember its specs, I was shocked when I got home and looked it up!

Anyhow I like the weird 2WD/Auto/4WD thing, I like the driving position, I like the back area.  Unfortunately I also like the Forester (except its total lack of rear legroom behind me when I'm driving -- to me it's a 3-seater).

Decisions decisions.  I've had the Explorer since Christmas Eve 1990, so I figure whatever decision I make now I'll have to live with for a while.

=andrew

[ovr50]

I would say it boils down to your own likes/dislikes between the X-Trail and the two levels of Forester. I think the XS forester is more comparable to the X-Trail than the XT Forester is. The XT is a wolf in sheep's clothing but you have to be prepared to live with the disadvantages of turbos (premium gas required, higher maintenance in the future?, more stress on engine). Unless you really enjoy the thrill of the turbo, I would look between the XS and the X-Trail (the XS is also going to be about $5 or 6K more than the other two). Then it would come down to your personal preferences - they are both excellant vehicles. Drive them back to back, make up a prioriitzed list of what's important to you and then pick. Let us know - good luck.

[Mdxtasy]

Like Ovr says....it's going to come down to see what fits you best.  The X-Trail is owned by a few people on the board and have gotten great reviews from them.  I'm sure they'll come in with their experiences and am sure that will help you out further.

[ovr50]

Sorry, in my 10:48 post above, I meant to say the "XT" was going to be $5 or 6K more than the XS and the X-Trail.

[corey]

I was considering purchasing a WRX wagon but needed a bit more cargo room. What I really wanted was something along the lines of an Audi Allroad but could only afford about half that. I ended up with a Forester XT and have absolutely no regrets. As for room, I'm about 6'-0" and prefer to lower the seat and steering wheel all the way (such a joy after the bus-like position of my CR-V) . With this adjustment, there is at least 6" of clearance above my head. When someone needs to sit behind me, the easiest way to accomodate them is by raising my seat, not moving it forward. They don't usually require knee room, but somewhere to put their feet. Try this before you buy. You may be surprised at how much room there is back there.

For the extra $$$, you not only get the turbo (with electronic throttle and variable valve timing) but limited-slip rear differential, electronic brake force distribution, a 6-disc CD changer with 6 speakers and a subwoofer, cold weather package (heated seats, heated wipers front/rear and heated mirrors) and a slightly different exterior appearance including a spoiler and different alloy wheels. Not sure if the suspension is the same as the XS but the centre of gravity is fairly low which was important to me. The disc brakes may also be slightly bigger, vented front/rear or something like that. Oh ya, the 2005's also get a power driver seat and more exterior colour choices.

On the other hand, the X-Trail seems like a great deal for ~$28k or so. Probably can't go wrong with either.

[safristi]

Welcome to the Forum Andrew..what's your next musical to be.."Phantom of the back seat!!"....if your gonna keep it for 14 years or so the "extra" grin factor of the XT Turbo Forester becomes more rational when spread over time....I sense you are enamoured with the X Trail and I'm sure Mr X-Trail a poster will be along soon.

[awebber]

Just call me "The Phantom of the Ottawa" ;)

Thanks all for your replies.  My calculation is that the XT is C$3800 more on list price, and about C$500 more a year on gas (including 10c/L extra for 91 octane).  The latter is based on the Natural Resources Canada estimate of 20K km/yr and 55% city/45% hwy.  I was going to guess 20K myself so it seemed reasonable.  

My baby only has 173K km after almost 14 years but I expect I'll drive any new vehicle more.  For example, one of the benchmarks I've been using is the price to drive to Montreal and back (which I mostly do on the train now, I like the train).  Mapquest says 187km door-to-door so I used 400km of highway as a reasonable estimate.  It's  

$24 (and change) in the XS,  
$33 in the XT,  
$25 in the X-Trail,  
$24 in the Aerio,  
$27 in the Vue,  
$31 in the Escape,  
$32 in the Liberty (to those -- not here of course -- who insist the Liberty is so thirsty compared to the Escape, the difference over 400km of highway is 64c; admittedly it's $2.88 over 400km of city driving),  
$40 in the Jimmy (just thought I'd throw that in),
$60 on the train (plus parking in Ottawa, which I usually overlook, but I can work on the train).

Thus 25 trips a year to Montreal would be about $250 extra in the XT (over the XS).

=andrew

[saint_satan]

While the turbo will put a smile on your face, it will also put a dent in your wallet over the next 14 years.  The added cost of premium gas and the higher maintainance cost for a turbo would be a disincentive for me.  The base engine is pretty decent at 165 h.p. and you will notice a huge gas savings from the Exploder when using regular gas.  I would go normally aspirated for things I intend to keep more than 5 years. If I was sniffing around in the small SUV category, I would probably look at CR-V, X-trail, Forester and maybe the Escape as a more capable alternative to the Japanese brands - Just my $0.02

[awebber]

quote:

As for room, I'm about 6'-0" and prefer to lower the seat and steering wheel all the way (such a joy after the bus-like position of my CR-V) . With this adjustment, there is at least 6" of clearance above my head. When someone needs to sit behind me, the easiest way to accomodate them is by raising my seat, not moving it forward. They don't usually require knee room, but somewhere to put their feet. Try this before you buy. You may be surprised at how much room there is back there.

Interesting idea, thanks!  I like my seat upright, in fact it's always funny when I've sat in a vehicle and banged my head on the sunroof (not the Forester) and the first thing the salesman does is recline the seat.  Of course I have headroom then but don't like the position.  For that reason, the Santa Fe (for example) sunroof is out of the question.  OTOH, there's simply not enough driver legroom in the SF for me, in any configuration.

When I check the space behind me by climbing into the back to see what the room is like, most salesmen will say, "don't forget you've got the seat all the way back", totally oblivious to the fact that that's the entire point!  Of course _I'm_ not going to sit behind myself, but is there room for someone my size?  Is there room for my parents?  Typically of course the shortest person in the group will get stuck behind me, and the passenger seat will be slid forward a bit.

quote:

For the extra $$$, you not only get the turbo (with electronic throttle and variable valve timing) but limited-slip rear differential, electronic brake force distribution, a 6-disc CD changer with 6 speakers and a subwoofer, cold weather package (heated seats, heated wipers front/rear and heated mirrors) and a slightly different exterior appearance including a spoiler and different alloy wheels. Not sure if the suspension is the same as the XS but the centre of gravity is fairly low which was important to me.

 
I think all models above the X have the limited-slip differential and the heated mirrors (another pet peeve of mine, my power-nothing Explorer doesn't have heated mirrors and they fog up.  That's okay I wouldn't expect anything else.  But when I've encountered a vehicle with power non-heated mirrors, I know it will bug me as long as I own the vehicle!  The Vue is an example of this, and they can't be added aftermarket.  I think Subaru boasts that the Boxer engine contributes to a low centre of gravity, don't know if there's any difference between models.

Cargo volume is 40-60L less in the XT than in the XS.  Shurely that's not because of the sunroof, does the subwoofer (standard on XT, optional on XS) steal space?  The "trunk" is small enough on this thing as it is!

quote:

I sense you are enamoured with the X Trail and I'm sure Mr X-Trail a poster will be along soon.

From the outside, it's no prettier than the Forester.  I don't mind that, I rather like driving the shoebox I have now.  I really don't care about heated/cooled cupholders, especially since I have a Diet Coke addiction and will probably have that feature disabled in winter.  Didn't check the rear seat of the X-Trail on Friday, but on spec it has 3" more legroom than the Forester.  OTOH it claims to have 3" less in the front which is nonsense.  

But ignoring the turbo for now, it's really hard to choose between the XS (with cloth and sunroof) and the X-Trail SE.  Neither is flashy on the outside, neither is a wacky design (the X-Trail being exactly four years old in Europe this month, and the Forester being, well, a Forester).

I plan to go out with the GF (who doesn't live in Ottawa, no points for guessing where she does live) late this week, drive the XS, drive the XT, drive the SE, and maybe drive the Vue.  Build a new small spreadsheet from my massive spreadsheet, and take your advice to really focus on what matters (none of them have rear-opening glass which I rely on now but it's a convenience not a safety).  Then buy something.

Does anyone have an opinion on going with CarCostCanada?  Both for the invoice info (which I know I can get here) and also for the "best price" thing.  Is the price quote typicallya good enough that it's worth going to my salesman and asking him to match?  I'm quite happy to pay a little extra for better service, of course, but don't want to pay too much.

Thanks again!
=andrew [not Lloyd]

[awebber]

quote:

If I was sniffing around in the small SUV category, I would probably look at CR-V, X-trail, Forester and maybe the Escape as a more capable alternative to the Japanese brands

Thanks for the suggestion.  I rented an Escape to try it and I found the driving position really awkward.  There was something wrong about the angle of the steering wheel, that's what I remember most.  Then I rented a Liberty, hated it for the first hour, and loved it for the next two days.

Good point about the turbo, it really would be an indulgence and nothing more.  OTOH, all the discussion (here and elsewhere) of the XT has convinced me that if the spoiler is available on the XS, it might be worth getting as a functional accessory.

=andrew

[inco]

X Trail is a good package and so is the Forester. We have had two Forester's and now have an 03 XS. I like it but I would be hard pressed to decide between the two.

Price and performance would sway me. Price gives it to Nissan and performance wins with the XT. Still that dash on the X may not be for everyone.

Subie will have better resale value I expect because of being here longer and known - also it is reliable too.

[awebber]

Good point about resale, also if the X-Trail is never introduced to the US (who knows?) will that also affect resale?  And would it be hard to get it serviced while travelling in the US?  

I have no plans to do that, but I'd hate to break down and discover the local Nissan dealer has to get X-Trail-specific parts from Canada.  Of course I have no reason to think anything essential is unique to that vehicle (some of the interior stuff, sure, but I could drive home with a broken rear fibreglass deck or whatever).

=andrew

[Mdxtasy]

Have you checked out the Chevy Equinox?

[awebber]

No I haven't, and I'm not sure why.  In terms of size it's almost as big as the new Explorer, but in price it's competitive in the ~$30K class.

Thanks for the pointer.

=aw

[barrie1]

The Chevy will probably be cheaper to own over the years with the cost of parts and the convineance of obtaining them as well. They do build a great vehicle.

[Mdxtasy]

My wife saw one when they first came out and she mentioned how similar the thing looks to our MDX as well as the Range Rover (from the back anyway).  Haven't seen it up close though.  Chevy also has their Malibu Maxx wagon.  VW Jetta wagon....Dodge Magnum....I hope I am not putting too many choices on the list.

[awebber]

Sure, every time I narrow it down a few more choices come up.  Actually I don't remember why I wasn't interested in the AWD Jetta Wagon, it was on my list.  Didn't even consider the Malibu, Magnum I find ugly and big.  Since I have no idea what it costs or what it rides like, I guess that's a big prejudiced.

=aw

[corey]

The subwoofer is completely non-intrusive so I assume the sunroof is the reason for a 40-60L difference in cargo space. It sounds like a lot but as I mentioned I have more than enough headroom. Have you seen the size of the sunroof? I failed to mention a few other things the XT has (not sure about the XS or X-Trail): rubber cargo mat, cargo cover, roof rack, weather band radio, climate control (improved to 7-speed fan for 2005?), side air bags. All Subarus include roadside assistance provided by CAA for the duration of the warranty. I've already picked up my first free map!
For me it was the combination of safety (5-star crash test rating), car-like ride, full-time AWD, wagon/hatch convenience and of course... V8 performance. I have to say that the latest CR-V would be a great choice as it's very roomy, economical and a big improvement over my `99. The new Escape Hybrid is very interesting. The RAV4 is proven and has above average (possibly the best) handling for this segment but may be too small for you. The new base Legacy might fit your needs for around the same price as a Forester XS or X-Trail. A slightly used, V6, 4-motion Passat wagon would be nice.